What would make you believe in God?
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03-03-2012, 06:12 PM
What would make you believe in God?
Hello,

I'm new to this forum so apologies if this has been made before (which it probably has)

What would make you believe in God? So it would be a fact rather than a faith based thing because I recently read a blog post that most atheists ask for too much evidence given the fact that there is enough evidence of a Christian God. Whether that is true or not I do not know, I haven't researched enough about it so I'll suspend judgement. [/i]
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03-03-2012, 06:26 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
The same amount of evidence that I require to believe in a scientific theory or historical claim.

1. The claim has to be specific enough to be relevant. Just talking about a "higher power" doesn't accomplish much.
2. The idea has to be logically consistent within itself. That's first and most basic criteria for even possibly being true, so that's not asking for much. Even "Harry Potter" can accomplish that.
3. The claim has to be testable. Something that can either be proved or disproved, at the very minimum at least in theory.
4. There has to be actual physical evidence in proportion to the enormity of the claim being made. If you tell me you had waffles for breakfast, I'll most likely just choose to believe you. If you tell me you have a pet dragon, I'm gonna need to see it in person.

So applying this to god we have....

1. Tell me about your god specifically. What's he like, and why does he matter?
2. Don't tell me anything isn't even internally consistent.
3. Tell me what this god does that can be observed or tested. Does he answer prayers?
4. Now go out and back it up with some evidence. Do 90% of people who pray for their cancer to be cured heal?
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03-03-2012, 06:30 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
For me, it wouldn't take much...
[Image: pile-of-money.png]

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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03-03-2012, 06:38 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(03-03-2012 06:12 PM)ALovelyChickenMan Wrote:  Hello,

I'm new to this forum so apologies if this has been made before (which it probably has)

What would make you believe in God? So it would be a fact rather than a faith based thing because I recently read a blog post that most atheists ask for too much evidence given the fact that there is enough evidence of a Christian God. Whether that is true or not I do not know, I haven't researched enough about it so I'll suspend judgement. [/i]

You are correct, it has been asked before. I lack enthusiasm to search the threads and besides I dislike resurrecting dead threads - it smacks of Godliness.

Um... too much evidence? Fraid I'm not following you there. Enough evidence would be good. Since I'm bored, here's some crap to read, drawn from the depths of my tortured soul.

a. We can't prove stuff for sure. That's because we're finite, not very bright and stuck on this effing ball of rock in the middle of nowhere.
b. So we work in probabilities.
c. We use the scientific method to investigate stuff and try and figure out what's true and what's not. This is not some arcane procedure, it's simply a case of "I think X is true" "OK, let's try and check it".

Evidence produced for God tends to be of a variety that is either
a. uncheckable by definition. (e.g. God is everywhere! Jesus loves you!)
b. attributable to something else.

This attributing to something else is not something that we willfully decide to do, it's just that for example if a magician makes a coin disappear we don't immediately conclude that he can use magic, we suspect a trick.

The problem is that with every proclaimed evidence for God, we as humans, as a species, have been eventually able to see through the trick.

ALSO, God apparently chooses very strange ways of revealing himself, since all he really needs to do is knock on the door and say hello. Instead he's got these fancy miracles like tsunamis and earthquakes and loadsa other things all of which we have good theories for that don't need a fancy pants invisible being.

Finally, reading the bible and other sources, it becomes pretty clear that God and the whole story could very easily have been made up by e.g. priests, for the purposes of controlling society, and to keep themselves in beer and women without having to do an honest day's work. Refined over the centuries as later kings and priests adapted it to suit their needs...
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03-03-2012, 06:41 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
Erx I think you're thinking of a genie.

For me it wouldn't take much. I'm not totally positive there is no god in the first place so...

God would have to appear before me and then show me exactly what happened when he created us. Step by step.

I think the religious don't ask for enough proof really.

It's the same to me as if someone were to say "I can fly" I'd of course say "show me". If they were to show me I'd believe them. It's an outrageous claim that has zero precedent so proof of the ability is required otherwise I can comfortably dismiss it as most likely false.

Whether god exists or not is such a poor lazy question. My question is " why would god exist?"

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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03-03-2012, 06:45 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(03-03-2012 06:30 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  For me, it wouldn't take much...
[pile o' dough image]

Well, you were a preacher once, so does that mean you miss the cash? ;p


Deists are the best at arguing a deity from a belief stand point (in my experience), and even they have to admit a god of the gaps. I actually don't mind that in some ways. At least you know what your limitations for proving your own belief are.

You should be aware of how things are proven. I've met Muslims who were Christians and vise versa. I'm certain there are people that convert to and from most of the major religions and to being an atheist (not having a belief in a deity) and even back... How to you determine what is correct? If you had a blank slate and had to figure it out, how could you? Most atheists that become atheists do so because evidence for deities is lacking. Granted, gods do exist in the minds of people that carry the traditions and superstitions that have culminated in the major religions, but in real life.. that's where you have to provide evidence of a deity.

Oh, and welcome to the forum.

Defy gravity... stand up. Drinking Beverage
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03-03-2012, 06:48 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
Here is the post that I was talking about:
Quote:The unfair demand for evidence

The fourth point is related to each of the previous points, and may be posed by a question, “What would count as ‘extraordinary evidence?’ Most of the replies I generally receive are not particularly sensible, and generally resemble the clichéd refrain, “I’d believe in God if he appeared out of nowhere and moved mountains for me when I said so,” with various paraphrases. Now, ignoring the suspicion that this may not be true in many cases, the lack of a sensible answer in most cases highlights the implausibility of the sceptic’s demands. True, there are some fair remarks (eg, if the resurrection were true, we may expect to find accounts of appearances at the end of Mark’s Gospel), but generally they involve an implausible demand. “Why did hardly any secular historians mention Jesus’ resurrection?” is a typical example. To demonstrate, I will suggest why this is an unfair requirement, and why we would not expect there to be a multitude of secular historians attesting to Jesus’ resurrection. Firstly, the question presupposes that there were many 1st century historians who could look at the evidence and remain a sceptic. This is a simple point- some of the first century historians (eg Luke) converted to Christianity because of the strength of the evidence, and so it is unfair to ignore those historians who became Christian. Second, Jesus died a third of the way through the first century, and because oral tradition would successfully retain the story early on, there would be no need to write events down until a few centuries later. This greatly reduces the amount of time possible for historians to mention Jesus’ ministry. Third, Jesus was not of any great concern to secular historians around the time of his ministry. Of course, he is rightly worshipped and of utmost importance now, but to most secular historians in the 1st century he was merely the crucified leader of a Jewish cult. Historians were far too busy writing accounts of wars and the like. Fourth, we would not expect a secular historian to be strengthening the case of Christianity if he did not believe it. Again, this is an elementary point. We have no expectation of someone who wasn’t a Christian to start writing accounts confirming the central Christian message! Fifth, there are secular accounts of Jesus’ ministry. True, they do not attest to the resurrection, but we have people like Josephus and Tacitus verifying important aspects of Jesus’ ministry fairly soon afterwards. From these points, we can see that the sceptic’s claims are often implausible with regard to expecting ‘extraordinary evidence’. The reason we may not have it is because we would not expect it, and that is a perfectly fair defence. This only highlights a problem with evidentialism (something the objector often treasures more than life itself), as opposed to a deficiency in Christianity.

The whole blog is here: http://dovetheology.com/apologetics/extr...aryclaims/ I'm not sure whether he'd want me leading people there but I am anyway Tongue
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03-03-2012, 06:50 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(03-03-2012 06:41 PM)lucradis Wrote:  It's the same to me as if someone were to say "I can fly" I'd of course say "show me". If they were to show me I'd believe them. It's an outrageous claim that has zero precedent so proof of the ability is required otherwise I can comfortably dismiss it as most likely false.

I can fly... just follow me to the airport.. Tongue

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03-03-2012, 06:56 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(03-03-2012 06:50 PM)craniumonempty Wrote:  I can fly... just follow me to the airport.. Tongue

Or apply boot to posterior Tongue
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03-03-2012, 06:58 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(03-03-2012 06:48 PM)ALovelyChickenMan Wrote:  ...

The whole blog is here: http://dovetheology.com/apologetics/extr...aryclaims/ I'm not sure whether he'd want me leading people there but I am anyway Tongue

So tell us your thoughts on this. By the way, "evidentialism"? Really? So you will believe anything we tell you? I hope not. Do you only believe what you feel correct? What do you do when it's not?'

Is this a post, paste, and run?

(03-03-2012 06:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 06:50 PM)craniumonempty Wrote:  I can fly... just follow me to the airport.. Tongue

Or apply boot to posterior Tongue

That might work... how hard can you kick?

Defy gravity... stand up. Drinking Beverage
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