What would make you believe in God?
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03-03-2012, 07:00 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
See the problem with religious people whining that the evidence we require is too much, is that an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence.

I mean to prove to me that you can fly (not in an airplane lol) I wouldn't expect or accept you driving a car. It wouldn't prove anything. Other than you can drive a car, which wasn't up for debate in the first place.

So for a religious person to tell me that my expectations for proof of a being that they say created everything in existence for no apparent reason using magic only he has, just the one time and before that there was literally nothing.... Yeah asking him to recreate the experience for me is asking way too much.... Or the claim is just too much to prove?

It would go a long way for a god like being to even just appear in front of me from nothing. Which for being that creates entire universes by thinking it, shouldn't be hard at all. So how is it asking too much, how is it extraordinary?

It's just another excuse.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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03-03-2012, 07:03 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(03-03-2012 06:58 PM)craniumonempty Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 06:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 06:50 PM)craniumonempty Wrote:  I can fly... just follow me to the airport.. Tongue

Or apply boot to posterior Tongue

That might work... how hard can you kick?

we might have to try multiple experiments...
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03-03-2012, 07:05 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(03-03-2012 06:58 PM)craniumonempty Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 06:48 PM)ALovelyChickenMan Wrote:  ...

The whole blog is here: http://dovetheology.com/apologetics/extr...aryclaims/ I'm not sure whether he'd want me leading people there but I am anyway Tongue

So tell us your thoughts on this. By the way, "evidentialism"? Really? So you will believe anything we tell you? I hope not. Do you only believe what you feel correct? What do you do when it's not?

Will I believe anything you tell me? no. I just like opinions, you know, variety is the spice of life and everything Tongue I joined to learn about new things Smile

I'm still trying to form my views on it. I've been working my way through the site in general but to that post specifically I don't think that people ask for too much evidence because the claim is quite astonishing. If God does exist... he's the best hide and seek player ever.
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03-03-2012, 07:08 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
Seems to me that God used to talk to people a lot, at least if you believe what is in the Bible. Now he only talks to preachers that need money, the mentally ill, and to drop in now and then to tell some woman to kill her kids. ( Course he does seem to have a thing about threatening to kill kids.)

I would maybe perk up if he talked now and again to someone ordinary, but he would have to say things that aren't nutty.

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03-03-2012, 07:13 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2012 07:18 PM by craniumonempty.)
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(03-03-2012 07:05 PM)ALovelyChickenMan Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 06:58 PM)craniumonempty Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 06:48 PM)ALovelyChickenMan Wrote:  ...

The whole blog is here: http://dovetheology.com/apologetics/extr...aryclaims/ I'm not sure whether he'd want me leading people there but I am anyway Tongue

So tell us your thoughts on this. By the way, "evidentialism"? Really? So you will believe anything we tell you? I hope not. Do you only believe what you feel correct? What do you do when it's not?

Will I believe anything you tell me? no. I just like opinions, you know, variety is the spice of life and everything Tongue I joined to learn about new things Smile

I'm still trying to form my views on it. I've been working my way through the site in general but to that post specifically I don't think that people ask for too much evidence because the claim is quite astonishing. If God does exist... he's the best hide and seek player ever.

Sorry, I was speaking to the person in the post you pasted I guess...
(03-03-2012 07:03 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 06:58 PM)craniumonempty Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 06:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 06:50 PM)craniumonempty Wrote:  I can fly... just follow me to the airport.. Tongue

Or apply boot to posterior Tongue

That might work... how hard can you kick?

we might have to try multiple experiments...

Cool.. oh, I have this tendency to snap and try to kill people that are physically harming me (it's only happened a few times though), so if that's not a problem then let's do this.

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03-03-2012, 07:22 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2012 07:26 PM by Malleus.)
RE: What would make you believe in God?
The problem is that there is *no evidence* of a christian god.

The "evidence" about the christian god falls into one or more of the following categories:

1. Verifiable, relevant.

Everything that is verifiable and relevant failed miserably at the simplest scientific approach. Everything. Prayer, miracles, statistical life of believers versus non-believers versus believers of other religions, miraculous objects, people with supernatural powers, everything that could have been verified and was verified failed

2. Verifiable irrelevant.

Some wars described in the bible actually happened. Jerusalem obviously existed. Other places too. That means nothing.

New York exists. Buildings depicted in Spiderman comics exist. Maybe some characters in there are based on true acquaintances of the author. That obviously does not prove that Spiderman comics are based on true and supernatural events. Same with the bible.

However, the bible gets a LOT of history wrong. Flood: never happened. Plagues of Egypt: never happened. Moses probably never existed (not in that context anyway). Nazareth almost certainly did not exist during Jesus's lifetime (if Jesus ever existed even as a regular man). The genesis is plain wrong. That also doesn't prove that god does not exist, but based on the failure rate, it's pretty safe to dismiss the bible as a reliable source.

3. Unverifiable, possibly relevant.

God is invisible, immaterial, all powerful, all knowing, all wise etc. Such things should be verifiable at least by seeing some effects of these attributes in the real world, but they aren't. Again, this does not prove that they are false, but the flaw of taking them at face value is obvious. I can make the same claims about any imaginary being. That's the problem. Santa Claus has similar attributes on a lower level. I can't prove that Santa isn't real either, but I obviously don't believe he's real. Unverifiable claims are dangerous and should be avoided in the absence of more solid proof.

4. Witness accounts (including the bible)

While there certainly appear to be lots of those, they are the weakest form of proof. Hundreds of people could swear that they saw David Copperfield make a train disappear. It's amazing how wrong our senses can be sometimes and some people have an extraordinary ability to trick them. Hundreds of witnesses are not proof that David Copperfield has true magic powers. People's senses can be tricked. People's memories can be tricked. And last but not least, people lie.

Even when people don't lie, what they think they saw is not necessarily what really happened. Whenever such events were put to a scientific test they failed beyond any doubt. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I have no problem believing you if you tell me that you saw your cat sleeping. Unless I have reasons to doubt the fact that you have a cat, I require no evidence for your account. I take your word for it. If you tell me that you saw your cat flying, I need to see and touch a cat with wings that are physically suitable to carry its mass and size or it needs to levitate in front of me in circumstances that i can control and modify. Even a video or seeing it from a distance wouldn't be sufficient.

Back to the question: what kind of proof would make me believe? I don't know, but obviously an all-knowing god should know what he needs to say or do to make me believe. There is nothing *you* can say or do to make me believe in god. Read the bible. None of the people in there believed just like that. They all had sufficient evidence directly from god to base their belief system. They experienced god first-hand and that's why they believed because apparently the bible knows what kind of things one needs to experience in order to believe the unbelievable.

But enough about me. It's not clear from your post if you're a believer or not. If you are, what made you believe?

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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03-03-2012, 07:27 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(03-03-2012 07:22 PM)Malleus Wrote:  But enough about me. It's not clear from your post if you're a believer or not. If you are, what made you believe?

Thanks for the response, it makes sense.

To clarify, no i'm not. I lost my faith about 3 months ago I think but I still like reading around the subject. It's best to have a balanced view point before making criticisms.
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03-03-2012, 07:36 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(03-03-2012 07:22 PM)Malleus Wrote:  [...] If you tell me that you saw your cat flying, I need to see and touch a cat with wings that are physically suitable to carry its mass and size or it needs to levitate in front of me in circumstances that i can control and modify. Even a video or seeing it from a distance wouldn't be sufficient.
[...]

Cat... airport... ah, forget it. [/bad joke]

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03-03-2012, 07:39 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(03-03-2012 07:36 PM)craniumonempty Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 07:22 PM)Malleus Wrote:  [...] If you tell me that you saw your cat flying, I need to see and touch a cat with wings that are physically suitable to carry its mass and size or it needs to levitate in front of me in circumstances that i can control and modify. Even a video or seeing it from a distance wouldn't be sufficient.
[...]

Cat... airport... ah, forget it. [/bad joke]

Lol, yeah, I saw. There were no answers on this thread when I started composing my post.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

I would never shake a baby unless the recipe requires it.
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03-03-2012, 08:16 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(03-03-2012 06:12 PM)ALovelyChickenMan Wrote:  Hello,

I'm new to this forum so apologies if this has been made before (which it probably has)

What would make you believe in God? So it would be a fact rather than a faith based thing because I recently read a blog post that most atheists ask for too much evidence given the fact that there is enough evidence of a Christian God. Whether that is true or not I do not know, I haven't researched enough about it so I'll suspend judgement. [/i]

If you've never read David Hume's somewhat short essay entitled An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding then I would recommend that you read it (the full text is behind that link). It's fascinating how he logically broke down the paradox behind believing in miracles. Miracles are always less probable than natural events, so it is reasonable to meet them with skepticism 100% of the time.

And what less than a miracle would persuade me to believe in a god? Nothing. If there were already natural ways to measure god's existence, they would be well-known in this day and age, especially with the proliferation of information thanks to the internet.

If you believe that there is already enough evidence to believe in the Christian God, then you just don't understand what constitutes "evidence"...

It should be testable. If we can't verify your evidence, it's worthless. It should either be part of the common human experience, or tested by experts (and cited), or we should be able to test it ourselves. For instance, if you believe that prayer proves God, then prayer has to be testable and pass the test (and this implies it also has to be falsifiable).

It should fit within the scope of things we already know. As they would put it in court, you can't cite facts "not in evidence." You can't say that complex organisms are designed and all things with the appearance of design have designers... the premise that "all things with the appearance of design have designers" has not been proven.

Most importantly, it should fit within the confines of logic. If you don't understand why facts have to be logical, then I don't want to waste my time reasoning with the unreasonable. If you take a Philosophy of Religion class, you'll find that there are only 10 known arguments for God that are logically sound --- Wikipedia's entry isn't incomplete or just showing a sample... there are just too many arguments that people use for God's existence that are logically fallacious, and most theists wouldn't know a logical fallacy if they heard one. That's why we keep hearing debunked arguments like Pascal's Wager over and over again.

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