What would make you believe in God?
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04-03-2012, 01:07 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
I still can't get the image out of my mind. Lucradis is sitting on his porch looking out into the world and all the sudden god appears. He's carrying small anatomically correct dolls and he asks Lucradis where he was touched =p

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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04-03-2012, 01:20 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
Valid proof.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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04-03-2012, 01:22 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
I could say have some proof in a line of reasonable ways but since I don't find Gods reasonable.

I want some special feat that relates to said God's holybook.

I wanna be like Issac and have God come down and 'rastle me!
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04-03-2012, 01:24 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
I might be a bit more surprised if you threw a bible into an incinerator and after turning it off looked inside to find an intact bible, but then again that would just proove that the book publishers are magical =p

Or how about if everyone who tried to imitate jesus died of sudden heart attacks? It would eventually have to be believed. As long as it was at least 90%. It's not like senseless deaths in the name of religion aren't perpetrated enough already.

There's a reason everyone asks for that lightning bolt. I wonder if they've conducted a study of whether believers or non-believers are more often struck by lightning, and perhaps which religions make you most prone to the event.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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04-03-2012, 01:32 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(04-03-2012 12:57 PM)Malleus Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 12:00 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 11:23 AM)Malleus Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 11:10 AM)Dom Wrote:  Show me a god who isn't a sadist and I will - ahh - no - I still won't believe. But I will respect those who believe in him a lot more.

But then again you have to point your finger at the world we live in and ask the guy: "Are you saying that your non-sadistic god did this?" Aaaand we're back to square one. Any god that allegedly made this world has a lot to answer for.

Well, yes, but we are talking about a new god since so far I haven't seen one that is not sadistic.

So maybe this new one doesn't have a plan and isn't omnipotent... maybe we are just a little ant hill some place in a part of the woods that we know as the universe. Maybe there are a lot of other universes, and someplace in one of those lives a giant who has binoculars and watches us. He could just walk on over and poke our ant hill with a stick, but since he isn't sadistic, he just sits there and watches us toil away. Heck, he may even be benevolent and keep his kid from poking our hill, too.

Hey, it's as plausible as any other story...

We go back to the cargo cults. I can theoretically see a savage tribe from the satellite and I have access to resources and technology sufficient to make me a god in their eyes (as pointed out in a different thread, such things have happened in the past - some tribes are worshiping the American army as gods because they installed an airfield on their island and used it as a base of operations for a while).

Based on all their standards I am no less than a god. With the right equipment I have the power to single-handedly wipe out their entire community. With the right job in a good economy I can even provide basic and cheap food for them all for a long time. Is that sufficient to objectively make me a true god? I think not. I don't think superiority is sufficient. You need objective supremacy for that and your giant just doesn't cut it.

The thing is that only relative superiority wishes to be worshiped. You need to be pretty flawed yourself to enjoy and/or demand worship from inferior beings. Its the behavior of frustrated individuals with low self-esteem. A true supreme being would be more interested in a proper relationship with individuals with a closer intellectual level than in unconditional submission. I find talking to another human being more interesting than playing with my dog even if the dog does the closest thing to worship available at our level.

I find a smart dog far more interesting than one which obeys everything I command but doesn't seem to have any moods, any initiative and never surprises me.

The thing I'm getting at is that gods who wish to be worshiped are not truly worthy of worship. The ones who are worthy don't need it. A supreme being would be more interested in a freethinker that in a mindless sheep who turns god asslicking into a life-affirming purpose.

Ok, so what is a god? I suppose it can be anything. I can put my empty chocolate wrapper on a shelf and pray to it so that it may regrow the chocolate.

To me, then, the chocolate wrapper is a god. No? It doesn't actually have to regrow chocolate to be god, other gods don't react in any way to prayers either.

I assume my dog does think I am a god - I disappear for an hour and come back with parts of a cow, a chicken, parts of a pig and what not all. At least I am the supreme hunter.

Perhaps, depending on intelligence and education, we need better godly versions than chocolate wrappers. Most anyone I know would say that chocolate wrappers cannot be god.

So, why is my chocolate wrapper not god?



Note to self: I have got to get off this chocolate thing!

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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04-03-2012, 01:34 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/norods.html

That was a pretty interesting article about the subject. I guess there we have it. Christians have a long history of being hit by lightning =p Something to do with their desire to be bigger than everyone else. I partcularly like that they were arguing for the destruction of their own property.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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04-03-2012, 01:58 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(04-03-2012 01:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  Ok, so what is a god? I suppose it can be anything. I can put my empty chocolate wrapper on a shelf and pray to it so that it may regrow the chocolate.

To me, then, the chocolate wrapper is a god. No? It doesn't actually have to regrow chocolate to be god, other gods don't react in any way to prayers either.

I assume my dog does think I am a god - I disappear for an hour and come back with parts of a cow, a chicken, parts of a pig and what not all. At least I am the supreme hunter.

Perhaps, depending on intelligence and education, we need better godly versions than chocolate wrappers. Most anyone I know would say that chocolate wrappers cannot be god.

So, why is my chocolate wrapper not god?



Note to self: I have got to get off this chocolate thing!

From your subjective point of view the wrapper can be a god, but it's not objectively a god. It's not worthy of worship. Objectively, from the man who made the design to the minimal wage worker who carries the boxes of chocolate and even the machine that printed the logo are relatively more worthy of worship.

I suppose the god hypothesis attempts to identify the end of the line of things which are gradually more worthy of worship than the previous one. That's what I would call a supreme being. Since every large number can be increased by 1, the god idea works with mathematical infinities. A supreme being needs to be at the beginning of everything or, otherwise it would have limitations and a relative inferiority towards anything that is not in its control.

The problem here is that "nothing" was never observed in nature and is just as impossible to fully imagine as infinity. People who try to prove that a god is even necessary have a big problem there. For any god idea to work, you need "nothing". If god is made of something that existed before he was or is equally eternal, that thing is objectively at least as worthy of worship and god is limited by it. In that case, he's not at the end of the scale, but merely in a state of relative superiority just like everything else.

If he made everything intentionally, he needs to answer for everything and he has to be a sadistic fuck at the bottom line. If we are unintentional and he has no interest in improving us and/or he doesn't care, worshiping him is pointless. If ants in my backyard intimately worship me in their hill, I have no idea about it and no interest in that. They are wasting their time. They objectively provide for themselves and they may die (by my hand of otherwise) and I wouldn't know and care. Either way, there is no point in worshiping god for any other reason that fear.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

I would never shake a baby unless the recipe requires it.
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04-03-2012, 02:13 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(04-03-2012 01:34 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  http://www.tektonics.org/lp/norods.html

That was a pretty interesting article about the subject. I guess there we have it. Christians have a long history of being hit by lightning =p Something to do with their desire to be bigger than everyone else. I partcularly like that they were arguing for the destruction of their own property.

What a bizarre article. I thought it was great until I realised it was a response to an article which they conveniently didn't link to. And the apologetics stuff was utter bullshit. Apparently the church and theologians were not to blame for all the superstition because Benjamin Franklin was wrong about sharp tipped lightning rods.
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04-03-2012, 02:16 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(04-03-2012 01:58 PM)Malleus Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 01:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  Ok, so what is a god? I suppose it can be anything. I can put my empty chocolate wrapper on a shelf and pray to it so that it may regrow the chocolate.

To me, then, the chocolate wrapper is a god. No? It doesn't actually have to regrow chocolate to be god, other gods don't react in any way to prayers either.

Note to self: I have got to get off this chocolate thing!

From your subjective point of view the wrapper can be a god, but it's not objectively a god. It's not worthy of worship. Objectively, from the man who made the design to the minimal wage worker who carries the boxes of chocolate and even the machine that printed the logo are relatively more worthy of worship.

Big Grin I worship at the altar of the chocolate god nearly every day...I think it's worthy.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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04-03-2012, 02:17 PM
RE: What would make you believe in God?
(04-03-2012 01:58 PM)Malleus Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 01:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  Ok, so what is a god? I suppose it can be anything. I can put my empty chocolate wrapper on a shelf and pray to it so that it may regrow the chocolate.

To me, then, the chocolate wrapper is a god. No? It doesn't actually have to regrow chocolate to be god, other gods don't react in any way to prayers either.

I assume my dog does think I am a god - I disappear for an hour and come back with parts of a cow, a chicken, parts of a pig and what not all. At least I am the supreme hunter.

Perhaps, depending on intelligence and education, we need better godly versions than chocolate wrappers. Most anyone I know would say that chocolate wrappers cannot be god.

So, why is my chocolate wrapper not god?



Note to self: I have got to get off this chocolate thing!

From your subjective point of view the wrapper can be a god, but it's not objectively a god. It's not worthy of worship. Objectively, from the man who made the design to the minimal wage worker who carries the boxes of chocolate and even the machine that printed the logo are relatively more worthy of worship.

I suppose the god hypothesis attempts to identify the end of the line of things which are gradually more worthy of worship than the previous one. That's what I would call a supreme being. Since every large number can be increased by 1, the god idea works with mathematical infinities. A supreme being needs to be at the beginning of everything or, otherwise it would have limitations and a relative inferiority towards anything that is not in its control.

The problem here is that "nothing" was never observed in nature and is just as impossible to fully imagine as infinity. People who try to prove that a god is even necessary have a big problem there. For any god idea to work, you need "nothing". If god is made of something that existed before he was or is equally eternal, that thing is objectively at least as worthy of worship and god is limited by it. In that case, he's not at the end of the scale, but merely in a state of relative superiority just like everything else.

If he made everything intentionally, he needs to answer for everything and he has to be a sadistic fuck at the bottom line. If we are unintentional and he has no interest in improving us and/or he doesn't care, worshiping him is pointless. If ants in my backyard intimately worship me in their hill, I have no idea about it and no interest in that. They are wasting their time. They objectively provide for themselves and they may die (by my hand of otherwise) and I wouldn't know and care. Either way, there is no point in worshiping god for any other reason that fear.

Nothing is objectively a god.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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