When I lost my faith
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06-09-2012, 01:01 PM
RE: When I lost my faith
(06-09-2012 12:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-09-2012 11:27 AM)DLJ Wrote:  So is it better to live in say, Norway or Alaska so our brains stay cold or better to move to Singapore where less heat gets lost from the brain cos the outside temperature is the same.

Is this why desert wanderers (pick your favourite biblical tribe) were such hot-heads?

Yes. And it explains the slow deterioration in the quality of your posts. Consider

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06-09-2012, 01:05 PM
RE: When I lost my faith
(06-09-2012 01:00 PM)Leela Wrote:  no chas, it is not getting wasted, stuff changes form but it is not gone just because fire burns. fire is a product, just like light is one, heat is one... it is not gone. when i heat up the room and then open the window, the heat is not gone at all, it just spread so much that noone will feel it outside. When I die one day and I rot away. I am not really gone, I changed my form into dirt / if I get burnt after death (more likely) I am not gone either, I am ash. When the ash decomposts decomposes (spelling?) it is not gone, again it changed form. Maybe a worm ate from the ash, now the worms digestive system will make use of it, and the worm can live one more day.
That is what I meant with nothing gets wasted. Just that I took it one step further.

I misinterpreted your use of 'wasted'. In engineering, energy that does no useful work is wasted, and it is usually because it is heat, the bottom of the energy heap.

Yes, matter and energy change form. But 'we' are highly organized matter and energy, and it is the organization that dissipates when we age and die and is wasted.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-09-2012, 04:36 AM
RE: When I lost my faith
(06-09-2012 01:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, matter and energy change form. But 'we' are highly organized matter and energy, and it is the organization that dissipates when we age and die and is wasted.
And exactly that is the question. I understand that we die and that is it. But I do not understand why it is not possible to reincarnate because it seems very wasteful to me that all the experience of an individual is simply lost the second their "light" turns off.

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07-09-2012, 05:07 AM
RE: When I lost my faith
(07-09-2012 04:36 AM)Leela Wrote:  
(06-09-2012 01:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, matter and energy change form. But 'we' are highly organized matter and energy, and it is the organization that dissipates when we age and die and is wasted.
And exactly that is the question. I understand that we die and that is it. But I do not understand why it is not possible to reincarnate because it seems very wasteful to me that all the experience of an individual is simply lost the second their "light" turns off.

The organization of the matter and energy that is 'you' is not something that exists apart from your physical self. There is no thing that persists after your body stops living.
For reincarnation to occur, there would have to be something like the soul to exist to hold 'you' and be passed on to another body.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-09-2012, 07:29 AM
RE: When I lost my faith
So then you believe animals are also reincarnated ? i know some believe that or believed that. I guess I would say neuroscience would be the place to start, right now I'm taking a psychology class and we are talking about neuroscience psychologists, I think (but unsure) that could explain the "energy" you feel, but I feel like a personality is the product just of brain activity mixed with social experiences, and your brain is re-used in the earth as it decomposes like you said it is just no longer active. Personally I have never believed in "energy" or "past lives" really but even right now they are still studying those parts of the brain and trying to figure out if people who receive psycho therapy and then think they recall child abuse that they had forgotten is real. The people believe it is real but apparently theres no proven case like where the person says it happens but didn't realize it till I was hypnotized and the accused agreed it happened. The thought is perhaps the brain is searching and pulls out different things from other experiences, tv shows, maybe things we have read, etc and kind of mixes and matches to form a memory that didn't actually happen.

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07-09-2012, 07:45 AM
RE: When I lost my faith
(07-09-2012 04:36 AM)Leela Wrote:  
(06-09-2012 01:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, matter and energy change form. But 'we' are highly organized matter and energy, and it is the organization that dissipates when we age and die and is wasted.
And exactly that is the question. I understand that we die and that is it. But I do not understand why it is not possible to reincarnate because it seems very wasteful to me that all the experience of an individual is simply lost the second their "light" turns off.

Where did you get the idea that the universe cares about your memories? Both Chas and Alice nailed it. Sorry to break it to you, but when you are dead, you are dead. You don't get any second chances.

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07-09-2012, 11:47 AM
RE: When I lost my faith
Chas: my reasonable me understands that, my emotional me is struggling.

Alice: I don't believe that, no. But I used to. Especially the energy thing is still sitting deep and sometimes difficult to reason away, because it has been reasoned into me pseudoscientifically... Difficult to explain.

Logica, nothing to break to me, I am out of this since 3 years. Where did I get the idea? I was indoctrinated, just like everyone else who comes out of religion. And just like everyone else, I am still struggling with the ideas that were put in my head.

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07-09-2012, 04:55 PM
RE: When I lost my faith
(07-09-2012 11:47 AM)Leela Wrote:  Logica, nothing to break to me, I am out of this since 3 years. Where did I get the idea? I was indoctrinated, just like everyone else who comes out of religion. And just like everyone else, I am still struggling with the ideas that were put in my head.

Yes, yes. But your reasoning. Please explain why the fact that it is 'wasteful' matters to the universe? Can you elaborate on this position?

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07-09-2012, 05:21 PM
RE: When I lost my faith
The universe tends to be disorganized, that's what we could perceive as it "intention" (you know, just to simplify the ideas) then, conserving a person personality would be very disadvantageous as it's a very organized thing. IF we consider earth as a closed system (which is not) then it would be true that life in general violates the laws of thermodynamics, because life is everything but entropy, so as far as we know, life is a stone in the universal shoes.
With that interpretation, it could be easy to say that death is a small victory of the universe against this annoying thing called life, thus, reincarnation and an afterlife in general, is just our minds trying to cope with losing.

I know the universe has no intentions, and that life doesn't violates entropy and all that, I just tried to put things in a way that wouldn't be so dissonant with your old ideas to try to help you reinterpret them so you can stop struggling with them Big Grin

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08-09-2012, 06:30 AM
RE: When I lost my faith
Logica, No, I can not elaborate on that. Nothing matters to the universe, it has no brain, it has no intellect, at least as far as science knows so far. I think that things are not wasted, as I said, things change form. I die and become ash/dirt, so what about the energy that I used to produce? All the energy that I in fact did produce throughout the years. Do they just poof? Like once my thought is over, it is gone? Let me try to make it a model, the way I understand, it. If I am wrong, please explain why. When my brain forms a thought it sends out electric impulses and the neurons and electrons are reacting, and an area in my brain "lights up". There is my thought. Now I just formed a specific thought, it is not gone, it is an idea, that stays in my brain. Now what is it that just happened? Until three years ago I thought what is happening is, that we have a sould, which is external, which kinda saves these things, including my personality and experiences. They would not be saved in my hardware but in my soul. Having the idea that my soul is not a part of my body but only connected means that when my body dies, my sould does not. So once my body dies, my soul would need a new body and then be enrichened by the next person's ideas and experiences, and so on and so forth.
By now I do understand that my brain kinda lights up a specific area and that is my thought and this idea stays because, dunno, new connections have been made inside my brain? I don't know. But still I have this picture in my mind, that you can't just simply waste a whole personality, a ready done character, just because the body dies.
I find this very frustrating.
I know, I understand, with my reasonable part of my mind that it is just the way it is, and when I am dead I am dead, period. But it is frustrating, and I want to know and understand why this waste is taking place.

here I wanna adapt the chaotic universe of nach_in. I am not sure how chaotic it is as a lot of things seem pretty much in order. At least physic laws are applied everyone in "known" space. But yes, if you look at the universe itself, it does indeed seem very chaotic and wastefull so this makes the case of "there is not reincarnation/afterlife" much stronger.

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