When I lost my faith

[Logica Humano]

(08-09-2012 06:30 AM)Leela Wrote:  Logica, No, I can not elaborate on that. Nothing matters to the universe, it has no brain, it has no intellect, at least as far as science knows so far. I think that things are not wasted, as I said, things change form. I die and become ash/dirt, so what about the energy that I used to produce? All the energy that I in fact did produce throughout the years. Do they just poof? Like once my thought is over, it is gone? Let me try to make it a model, the way I understand, it. If I am wrong, please explain why. When my brain forms a thought it sends out electric impulses and the neurons and electrons are reacting, and an area in my brain "lights up". There is my thought. Now I just formed a specific thought, it is not gone, it is an idea, that stays in my brain. Now what is it that just happened? Until three years ago I thought what is happening is, that we have a sould, which is external, which kinda saves these things, including my personality and experiences. They would not be saved in my hardware but in my soul. Having the idea that my soul is not a part of my body but only connected means that when my body dies, my sould does not. So once my body dies, my soul would need a new body and then be enrichened by the next person's ideas and experiences, and so on and so forth.
By now I do understand that my brain kinda lights up a specific area and that is my thought and this idea stays because, dunno, new connections have been made inside my brain? I don't know. But still I have this picture in my mind, that you can't just simply waste a whole personality, a ready done character, just because the body dies.
I find this very frustrating.
I know, I understand, with my reasonable part of my mind that it is just the way it is, and when I am dead I am dead, period. But it is frustrating, and I want to know and understand why this waste is taking place.

here I wanna adapt the chaotic universe of nach_in. I am not sure how chaotic it is as a lot of things seem pretty much in order. At least physic laws are applied everyone in "known" space. But yes, if you look at the universe itself, it does indeed seem very chaotic and wastefull so this makes the case of "there is not reincarnation/afterlife" much stronger.

In the end, Leela, everything is wasted. This universe will die within 30 billion years, and nothing will exist. That is the truth.

And here is a thought. How was it wasted if the person's legacy lives on?

[Leela]

How do you know that nothing will exist? I know that many stars die and about black holes, but maybe at the same time, stars and planets are forming. Maybe right now, somewhere else, the first cells are forming on another planet? Who knows?

[Logica Humano]

(08-09-2012 09:30 AM)Leela Wrote:  How do you know that nothing will exist? I know that many stars die and about black holes, but maybe at the same time, stars and planets are forming. Maybe right now, somewhere else, the first cells are forming on another planet? Who knows?

Because one of two things will happen. The universe will rip apart, or entropy will dissolve everything.

[Alice]

(08-09-2012 10:00 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  

(08-09-2012 09:30 AM)Leela Wrote:  How do you know that nothing will exist? I know that many stars die and about black holes, but maybe at the same time, stars and planets are forming. Maybe right now, somewhere else, the first cells are forming on another planet? Who knows?

Because one of two things will happen. The universe will rip apart, or entropy will dissolve everything.

Yes and earth it seems has around 5 billion years left. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...inflation/

Leela- I know your pain, just with different beliefs, expressing what you grieve is different then still believing it. It seems maybe this is where people are confused. When I say I miss having a god to pray to that I am grieving that, people understand that I no longer believe it but that I grieve this unrealistic thing that gave me comfort for soooo many years, for you it seems when you say what you used to believe people or at least some on the thread seem to be arguing against a belief you no longer hold and expect you to defend why you believed it. In all reality it doesn't matter why you believed it, what matters is that we help you like you helped me and so many others have helped and still help me with dealing with the aftermath of these traditions and beliefs that dictated in some cases everything in our lives including our coping skills and comforting us. What you need is the more you could say seasoned atheists give you advice on dealing with the grief, like someone maybe it was you saying to me that I don't remember when I was born, death will be like that. Then others like myself to say I am here for you, I will listen to you, I will try to help you, I want to know what you grieve. **hugs**

[Leela]

Alice, i think you hit it exactly! When I start talking about my ex faith I have to explain myself WHY I believed these things while most people in this forum do not have to do that because it is so common and known what and why they believed. Thank you so much for your comfort.
I have never grieved before. I just feel very frustrated about this topic, if that is grieving, then I am. I take comfort from knowing that I can talk about it to my hubby who is, just like I am, very reasonable and scientificly oriented. But this forum helps because I like to have more input than only one person.
Thank you so much Alice. I know you are new to the forum and I wouldn't have expected you to care about me at all. It was just your thread that got me thinking so much, and it made me realize how frustrated I feel as well. *hugs back*

[Logica Humano]

(08-09-2012 11:20 AM)Alice Wrote:  

(08-09-2012 10:00 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Because one of two things will happen. The universe will rip apart, or entropy will dissolve everything.

Yes and earth it seems has around 5 billion years left. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...inflation/

That's only if the multiverse hypothesis is proven, which it hasn't.
Life will not survive on Earth for five billion years. We will either have escaped, committed suicide, or remained on here and get wiped out by natural destruction (celestial bodies).

[Alice]

(08-09-2012 12:35 PM)Leela Wrote:  Alice, i think you hit it exactly! When I start talking about my ex faith I have to explain myself WHY I believed these things while most people in this forum do not have to do that because it is so common and known what and why they believed. Thank you so much for your comfort.
I have never grieved before. I just feel very frustrated about this topic, if that is grieving, then I am. I take comfort from knowing that I can talk about it to my hubby who is, just like I am, very reasonable and scientificly oriented. But this forum helps because I like to have more input than only one person.
Thank you so much Alice. I know you are new to the forum and I wouldn't have expected you to care about me at all. It was just your thread that got me thinking so much, and it made me realize how frustrated I feel as well. *hugs back*

Yes we are lucky to have our husbands!! I don't think people do it on purpose, but I understand what you are saying and wow I can totally see why you would be frustrated!!! I wanted to know more about what you believed only because its nice to share specifics that you are missing or struggling with, not because I want to know why you believed it. So feel comfortable sharing those things with me. I am curious, personally I always found eastern religions (which I think is where reincarnation came from?) more peaceful which I know for me that would actually make it more difficult to walk away from because I don't think much harm could come from it besides from a personal standpoint, but society wise I wouldn't think it could harm. Where I think its pretty obvious religions like Christianity have, had, and could do harm in an array of ways to entire groups of people. Have you come to any words of wisdom of handling death? I can tell you something recently like in the last couple nights that helped me. I was talking with my husband about when I die what I would like to happen (then after our talk I also wrote it in my journal). I talked about how I don't want a headstone, or funeral, I want to be cremated. Then I want him and my kids to spread the ashes in nature wherever they want while knowing that from then on I could be anywhere, because as you said many things are reused like water and soil. So that at any time they can think of me and the memories they made with me. I told my husband if he wants some kind of memorial for him and the girls and my immediate family (depending on whos still living) then he can but no church and no pastor and no one I didn't know (like to lead the memorial). Then to tell the extended family and friends that what I wanted in my memory to be done is not to come to a memorial, not to send flowers, but instead in three months call my children and him to see how they are, in a year drop off a meal, after the shock of the death settles and they are left with the grief to be there for my immediate family because that is what I want. For some reason it really made me feel a sense of power and re-confirmed my absence of belief.

[Leela]

Yes, that death topic, my husband and I went throught that, too. I am just not sure if it will be possible the way we want it, because his family is very religious. In case he dies first, there won't be much I can do. If I die first (which objectively seen is more likely) it will most likely happen the way planned because my family isn't very religious (anymore).
And no, my believe system doesn't specifically have eastern roots. I was a witch (not a wicca > it's not the same). Witchcraft is spread all over the planet. I followed north germanic mythology and the european ... say "old school" witchcraft first and then evolved into a so-called chaos-witch. Sounds more chaotic than it is lol. But yeah, for the outsider it is all just wooh. I always disaggree, because witchcraft teaches much more than just the woowoo-part. Last time I mentioned that, my thread was so completely derailed that I stopped talking about it. I am tired of justifying. But if you want, we can pm about it... like if you are still interested. If not that's fine too, I am not taking it personal.

[Logica Humano]

(08-09-2012 02:14 PM)Leela Wrote:  Yes, that death topic, my husband and I went throught that, too. I am just not sure if it will be possible the way we want it, because his family is very religious. In case he dies first, there won't be much I can do. If I die first (which objectively seen is more likely) it will most likely happen the way planned because my family isn't very religious (anymore).
And no, my believe system doesn't specifically have eastern roots. I was a witch (not a wicca > it's not the same). Witchcraft is spread all over the planet. I followed north germanic mythology and the european ... say "old school" witchcraft first and then evolved into a so-called chaos-witch. Sounds more chaotic than it is lol. But yeah, for the outsider it is all just wooh. I always disaggree, because witchcraft teaches much more than just the woowoo-part. Last time I mentioned that, my thread was so completely derailed that I stopped talking about it. I am tired of justifying. But if you want, we can pm about it... like if you are still interested. If not that's fine too, I am not taking it personal.

I think the reason we don't have to explain our beliefs is because we can easily state them. I, at least, know precisely what I believe. When it comes to theology, I can state it in one sentence. Do you know you have a reason to believe, or are you still trying to find it? That is the struggle I had during my deconversion process.

[Leela]

Logica, I am not sure I understand your question but no, I am not looking for a reason to believe. I am very happy that I am out of that system. It wasn't alll butterflies and roses, most of the time I was afraid that <enter what you want>.
Also, I can easily state my ex-shit as well, but it is so rare that noone understands, so when I have a question it becomes a huge discussion where first of all I have lay a foundation so that people know what I am talking about. As seen here in this thread and the reincarnation topic.