When Will Science End?
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17-12-2014, 05:18 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 05:06 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 04:51 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Once again this has no meaning. I can't put it another way as I have no idea what either "heart of reality" or "source of reality" refers to. Please use non-ethereal concepts so I may understand.

Ok, theists say God created reality. Surely you are familiar with this creation assertion, yes?

Source? Creator? Either is fine with me.

Does "reality" = universe? I'm guessing here.

I find that specifity is important for meaningful discussions so bear with me.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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17-12-2014, 05:20 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 03:29 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 12:09 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  So. You. A theist.

Evidence to back up your assertion please.

Your behavior over the last day or so.

Quote:Ok, this we have evidence for. :-) And you ain't seen nothing yet. :-)

That much is accurate. A metric crap-tonne of nothing.

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17-12-2014, 05:22 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 03:42 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  The very same test applies to the question of whether human reason is a qualified authority on the subject of gods. Here too, the qualifications of reason for this particular investigation have to be proven, asserting such qualifications isn't enough.

Let's cut to the chase...

Do you deny that reason is the only reliable tool we currently have to investigate truth claims?

What do you propose is the best course of action in response to god claims?

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17-12-2014, 05:25 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 05:07 PM)tear151 Wrote:  It's not that we "believe they don't exist"

It's that we "don't believe they exist until proof or evidence is provided"

Yes, I understand, you believe that reason is a qualified to deliver a meaningful conclusion on this particular question. That is your assertion.

Ok, so prove it. :-)

This is the very same challenge we reasonably present to theists when they claim that their holy books are qualified to deliver a meaningful conclusion on this particular question.

One person says X is a qualified authority. Ok, prove it.

Another person says Y is a qualified authority. Ok, prove it.

Same exact thing. The very same challenge applied in an even handed manner to anyone claiming to have a qualified authority for the question at hand.
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17-12-2014, 05:28 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 05:02 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 04:48 PM)Free Wrote:  Therefore, that which cannot be determined to exist through observation is thereby deemed to not exist.

Well said.

Doesn't your formulation assume that we could see XYZ if XYZ existed? Doesn't it assume an unproven ability?

I have a proven ability to see shoes. So if I search my bedroom for shoes, and find none, I can reasonably conclude that shoes do not exist in my bedroom.

Yes, you can indeed conclude that shoes do not exist in your bedroom. However, that does not mean shoes do not exist elsewhere.

Quote:But what if I'm searching for gamma rays, and my body does not possess the ability to detect gamma rays? In that case, the fact that I don't find gamma rays means nothing about their existence or non-existence.

Gamma rays are not detected by your body, so this analogy is pointless.

Quote:Only 100 years ago we couldn't see 99%+ of the universe, and our inability surely didn't prove that those hundreds of billions of galaxies don't exist.

At that point in time, those things did not exist to us. Since they had not been observed, they did not exist.

Quote:Given that it is a documented fact that we missed 99%+ of reality, how conclusive is it really if we don't observe something else?

We cannot base our conclusions on what we have not discovered to exist yet. We can only evaluate existence according to what has been observed at this point.

Quote:Why not say this?

1) We tried to observe XYZ and were unable to do so.

Instead of this...

2) We tried to observe XYZ and were unable to do so, therefore XYZ does not exist.

The first statement is clearly factual, whereas the second statement is speculative.

Firstly, you must provide some evidence that XYZ exists in the first place in order to even try to see it. You would need a well supported hypothesis before you even attempted to observe XYZ, otherwise you would have no basis to make the attempt.

Quote:Why not skip the speculation and just stick to the known facts?

The known facts are simple; things do not exist unless they have been detected as existing. We cannot speculate on what has yet to be determined to exist because there is no knowledge there.

If we use speculation to determine that something exists even though we cannot detect it, then that allows anybody to say that anything can exist. For example, if I say that there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster orbiting the earth, then does that mean it exists just because we cannot observe it?

Of course not.

Existence is determined by observation, and not speculation.

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17-12-2014, 05:28 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 05:20 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Your behavior over the last day or so.

No lazy quips please. No vague characterizations. Please demonstrate in some detail, quoting my own words, how my behavior over the past few days shows I am a theist. Please put up, or shut up, on this particular claim. Thank you very much.
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17-12-2014, 05:30 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 05:28 PM)Free Wrote:  At that point in time, those things did not exist to us. Since they had not been observed, they did not exist.

We couldn't see billions of galaxies, therefore they didn't exist? Work harder please.
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17-12-2014, 05:33 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 05:25 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 05:07 PM)tear151 Wrote:  It's not that we "believe they don't exist"

It's that we "don't believe they exist until proof or evidence is provided"

Yes, I understand, you believe that reason is a qualified to deliver a meaningful conclusion on this particular question. That is your assertion.

Ok, so prove it. :-)

This is the very same challenge we reasonably present to theists when they claim that their holy books are qualified to deliver a meaningful conclusion on this particular question.

One person says X is a qualified authority. Ok, prove it.

Another person says Y is a qualified authority. Ok, prove it.

Same exact thing. The very same challenge applied in an even handed manner to anyone claiming to have a qualified authority for the question at hand.

I posted my explanation as my first and second post, they still stand.

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17-12-2014, 05:33 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 05:28 PM)Free Wrote:  For example, if I say that their is a Flying Spaghetti Monster orbiting the earth, then does that mean it exists just because we cannot observe it? Of course not.

I can demonstrate the existence of the atheist deity :-) the Invisible Pink Unicorn if you wish. Point being, you might want to be careful before you go around stating what doesn't exist.

(17-12-2014 05:28 PM)Free Wrote:  Existence is determined by observation, and not speculation.

Existence is independent of our ability to observe. Those hundreds of billions of galaxies existed for billions of years, whether or not Hubble had observed them.
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17-12-2014, 05:44 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 05:33 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 05:28 PM)Free Wrote:  For example, if I say that their is a Flying Spaghetti Monster orbiting the earth, then does that mean it exists just because we cannot observe it? Of course not.

I can demonstrate the existence of the atheist deity :-) the Invisible Pink Unicorn if you wish. Point being, you might want to be careful before you go around stating what doesn't exist.

(17-12-2014 05:28 PM)Free Wrote:  Existence is determined by observation, and not speculation.

Existence is independent of our ability to observe. Those hundreds of billions of galaxies existed for billions of years, whether or not Hubble had observed them.

Your position is philosophical, and not based established fact. For example, many of those galaxies may not longer exist, despite the fact that we can observe them. Sure, we still see the light emitting from them, but do they exist any longer?

You do not know. You can only assume they exist, but you cannot say with any certainty that they actually do still exist.

Until something is observed we can rightfully claim it does not exist. To claim that something may exist despite it not being observed as existing is futile and pointless.

The burden of proof is always upon he who makes a claim of existence. You are making a positive claim that states that what we cannot observe exists nonetheless.

You are now obligated to demonstrate conclusively that what cannot be observed may exist.

Good luck with that endeavor.

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