When Will Science End?
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17-12-2014, 06:15 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 05:44 PM)Free Wrote:  You are now obligated to demonstrate conclusively that what cannot be observed may exist.

Before Hubble, we couldn't observe hundreds of billions of galaxies. But they were still there.

The human body has limits, right? Surely the human mind does too. We are a single species on a tiny planet in one of billions of galaxies. Any notion that we would be capable of observing EVERYTHING is silly.

So surely there are things which exist, which we can't observe. To argue otherwise would be to argue that WE are gods.
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17-12-2014, 06:16 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 05:18 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Does "reality" = universe? I'm guessing here.

I have no idea. Neither does anybody else.
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17-12-2014, 06:26 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2014 10:12 PM by Free.)
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 06:15 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  [quote='Free' pid='702451' dateline='1418859879']
So surely there are things which exist, which we can't observe. To argue otherwise would be to argue that WE are gods.

Not "surely," for you must state specifically "what" exists.

Here is a simple task for you:

Name just one thing that exists, but we do not know it exists.

And ... that's that.

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17-12-2014, 06:28 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 05:22 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Do you deny that reason is the only reliable tool we currently have to investigate truth claims?

I deny that it's been proven that reason is a reliable tool for this particular task, questions about the ultimate nature of everything. Human beings are very small, and these are very big questions.

The fact that reason has been proven reliable and useful on very many issues does not automatically equal it being useful on EVERY issue.

If you are asserting reason can deliver meaningful answers to issues on the enormous scale of the god question, please prove it. I'm not going to accept such an assertion on faith, just as I don't believe in holy books on faith.

Want me to accept the qualifications of your chosen authority, whatever that authority may be, holy book, reason, something else? Ok, I'll listen, go ahead, prove it.

Quote:What do you propose is the best course of action in response to god claims?

This is a great question, and I may be too tired to do it justice. For now...

Investigate what can be investigated.

Why do we ask the god question?

That might something we could actually find an answer to.
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17-12-2014, 06:28 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
baba is there a reason you're ignoring me?

"A witty quote means nothing"
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17-12-2014, 06:32 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 06:16 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 05:18 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Does "reality" = universe? I'm guessing here.

I have no idea. Neither does anybody else.

If we can't define terms then the questions are meaningless.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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17-12-2014, 06:33 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 01:24 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Here's a question I hope you'll find engaging and relevant to the interest of members here.

When will science end?

How long will it be until the scientists hold a press conference to announce that they've learned it all, and are thus closing up shop?

A related question might be, is the pace of knowledge development accelerating? Should we expect to learn more each century than we learned in the previous century?

If you answer that 1) knowledge development will continue for a long time and 2) probably at an ever accelerating rate....

What does that say about what we know today?

Are we yet in a position to offer meaningful theories, let alone conclusions, about the kinds of issues addressed by the debate between religion and atheism?

Does anybody on any side really have a clue what we're talking about? Or do we just love talking?

Ok, your turn, go!

When they discover the 'Made In China' sticker at the end of the universe...

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17-12-2014, 06:35 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 06:28 PM)tear151 Wrote:  baba is there a reason you're ignoring me?

Yes, too much typing to too many people. :-)

I'm not aware I'm ignoring anybody, but I simply am unable to reply to every statement by every poster, and I'd be a thread hog if I did anyway.

Try posing your most important question or challenge again. Pick what matters most to you, and get me focused on that one thing.
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17-12-2014, 06:38 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2014 06:54 PM by tear151.)
RE: When Will Science End?
(17-12-2014 06:35 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(17-12-2014 06:28 PM)tear151 Wrote:  baba is there a reason you're ignoring me?

Yes, too much typing to too many people. :-)

I'm not aware I'm ignoring anybody, but I simply am unable to reply to every statement by every poster, and I'd be a thread hog if I did anyway.

Try posing your most important question or challenge again. Pick what matters most to you, and get me focused on that one thing.

Let's start from the beginning shall we

1. Constant awareness of the following things

- Sense impressions
- Self
- thoughts
- A memory that we cannot assume reliability of, but seems to mostly be consistent with the present and what we are constantly aware of

We know these things exist because we are always directly aware of them

2. inductive reasoning giving incredibly likely explanations for things

- I don't seem to control these sense impressions, there seems to be some external source for them, this external source seems to have the thing that causes what I'm constantly aware of inside it, the longer it goes on that I seem to lack meaningful control of these sense impressions unless I have reason to suggest I was hallucinating since it appeared what happened in this sense impression world has affected me

- The laws of this external world appear to be constant, we cannot be sure of this, but in our current frame of reference it is so, and we do not have the ability to infer anything outside of what we are aware of since by definition we are not aware of it. This gives us a lesser kind of truth or the inductive truth". Or what is true in my frame of reference.

For example

"I saw 10 white swans"

therefore "I cannot be sure all swans are white, but within my current frame of reference they have all been white, thus if I must make a conclusion, I will go on the assumption all swans are white until I see a contradiction"

These truths exist in the context of what we know, these are the truths science is based off, we believe them because they conform the the world and are yet to be disproven.

Truths about the nature of reality can only be realistically derived by an educated guess based on induction, claims without evidence don't even have that...

"A witty quote means nothing"
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17-12-2014, 06:49 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
Apologies, just too tired to do this justice, brain shutting down....

I did see this....

(17-12-2014 06:38 PM)tear151 Wrote:  ... thus if I must make a conclusion....

... and wonder why we would need to come to a conclusion on the god question.

What if not being able to answer the question should turn out to be more valuable than being able to answer the question? What if ignorance has more value here than knowledge?

Imagine you met a cute somebody at the bus stop and they invited you home for lunch. After a great conversation you find they are leading you by the hand in to their bedroom for the first time.

What makes this exciting? Why will you probably remember this moment for years, maybe the rest of your life.

Ignorance.

Now imagine you marry this person and 30 years later you are in bed with them for the millionth time. You probably won't remember this event until next Tuesday. :-)

What's the problem? Why the difference?

Not enough ignorance.
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