When Will Science End?
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16-12-2014, 04:20 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 04:09 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  What I said was, the part of medical science which concerns itself with saving lives (trillions of dollars) is based on a completely unproven faith based belief.

And millions of medical scientists accept this faith based belief in an unexamined manner, as obvious given.

Trillions of dollars being spent by millions of scientists, in pursuit of a goal no one really has a clue about.

This may demonstrate that science and religion are not quite as different as we often feel.

Is it not a given that life is precious?

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16-12-2014, 04:27 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 03:05 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 02:43 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Show me a faith-based space launch.

Show me the compelling evidence that we're better off alive than dead please.

My point is not that medical science is itself a religion, that would be stretching the word religion too far.

But the part of medical science that is about saving lives is built upon a faith based foundation, the completely unproven notion that we're better off alive than dead.

You know... You could go die, find out, and report back with your findings!

But seriously, there is no evidence for any sort of soul or consciousness that survives the death of the brain. If you're dead, you can't be better off, because YOU, as a personality, no longer exist. Problem solved.

Also, the only way science might even come close to 'ending' is with a perfect TOE. Once we have an ideal theory of everything, we could essentially answer any question, see past, present, and future events... But who knows of that is really even possible.
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16-12-2014, 04:32 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 03:10 PM)Free Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 02:43 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Ok, thanks. So if we don't kill ourselves first, or get hit by an asteroid etc, are you saying knowledge is essentially infinite? You know, so long as we're here, there will always be new things to learn?

Yes.

I am a proponent for an infinite universe, thereby, an infinite amount of knowledge is available.

I'm not sure the universe can be infinite. Reasoning: if the universe is infinite AND traversable, there would be an alien life form somewhere in this infinity which has decided to visit you, right now, where you are, and enjoy some coffee or something... With infinitities, all things possible will be happening at all times.
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16-12-2014, 04:44 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 04:09 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Trillions of dollars being spent by millions of scientists, in pursuit of a goal no one really has a clue about.

All of the evidence that we have points to death being the end and that when the electrochemical activity in the brain stops the consciousness does too. We do have lots of evidence of life before death and many people want to extend that life based on the purely rational conclusion that life is valuable and there is no reason to expect any value at all after death.

While that could be wrong, to say that no one really has a clue is not correct. We have plenty of clues and they all lead to life being more valuable than death. If those clues are misleading then we'll all find out someday but until then it doesn't require faith to accept the evidence that we have here and now.

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16-12-2014, 04:45 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 03:38 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
Quote:More than 99% of humans are afraid of death and try to, you know, avoid it.

Yes, agreed.

Quote:There's no evidence whatsoever that being dead is good....

No proof for sure, I'd be a little more cautious about your no evidence claim.

Quote:therefore being alive is the only thing we can be sure we have and we cherish it.

I'm not arguing against cherishing life of course. I'm just trying to show how even science is no stranger to faith.

Quote:Do you have any evidence that would make us all stop worrying about death?

Certainly no evidence that meets that test. I have some reasoning which might cause some to pause to consider, but I wouldn't call it evidence.

My point is not that I know, but that trillions of dollars are being spent on a faith based assumption no one can begin to prove, and we call it medical science. The techniques are science, but the assumption they serve are faith, religion by another name.

I'm attempting to tear down this neat and tidy little wall we've tried to build between reason and faith.

There is no wall to tear down. Your pretend wall is entirely fake. There is no evidence that any organism is "better off" dead, and in fact we OBSERVE what happens when organisms die. (Well maybe you don't as you're an ignoramus.) Your disingenuous attempt to redefine terms belies your intellectual bankruptcy and dishonesty.

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16-12-2014, 04:59 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
Science will forever science.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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16-12-2014, 05:43 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 03:05 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 02:43 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Show me a faith-based space launch.

Show me the compelling evidence that we're better off alive than dead please.

In some instances people are better off dead than alive, sadly. I'm betting that's not what you're talking about though.

Ignoring the terminally ill and incurably suffering, you have something while alive. When dead you have nothing because you no longer exist. All claims to the contrary are without the slightest shred of evidence.

(16-12-2014 03:05 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  My point is not that medical science is itself a religion, that would be stretching the word religion too far.

But the part of medical science that is about saving lives is built upon a faith based foundation, the completely unproven notion that we're better off alive than dead.

That would be stretching the words "completely unproven notion" too far.

(16-12-2014 03:05 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  To me, this illustrates the compelling power of faith based beliefs. Even those medical scientists who completely reject all religion are deeply involved in the faith based belief business.

Oh goody, you're one of those guys who can't tell the difference between faith and faith.

You have faith in God.

I have faith in my doctor, my architect, my accountant.

See the difference?

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16-12-2014, 06:01 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 03:31 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 03:10 PM)Free Wrote:  I am a proponent for an infinite universe, thereby, an infinite amount of knowledge is available.

Ok, so if knowledge development will continue for a very long time or forever, probably at ever accelerating rates....

Would it be fair we currently know pretty much nothing compared to what we will someday know?

You know, when cave men discovered fire that was a really big accomplishment. But they were still just half naked cave men grunting at each other, right?

If the universe is infinite, and thereby has infinite knowledge, then that means both the universe and knowledge themselves have no measurable dimensions.

Therefore, we cannot say that what we know today can be measured up against what we will know in the future, for neither the knowledge of today or the knowledge of tomorrow has any measurable dimensions.

Infinity does not allow for that.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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16-12-2014, 06:06 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 02:43 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 02:34 PM)Free Wrote:  Science will end when humankind ends, just like everything else will end.

Ok, thanks. So if we don't kill ourselves first, or get hit by an asteroid etc, are you saying knowledge is essentially infinite? You know, so long as we're here, there will always be new things to learn?

What is the other option? Make up bullshit stories and create clubs that run governments on them? That has already been done and it seems making up bullshit stories instead of fact finding seems to pit humans against each other.

Knowledge is not gained by stagnation in thought. Knowledge is gained when we observe and test and and have the willingness to give up on bad data.

If our species never questioned social norms our species never would have left the caves.

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16-12-2014, 06:12 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 02:34 PM)Free Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 01:24 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Here's a question I hope you'll find engaging and relevant to the interest of members here.

When will science end?

How long will it be until the scientists hold a press conference to announce that they've learned it all, and are thus closing up shop?

A related question might be, is the pace of knowledge development accelerating? Should we expect to learn more each century than we learned in the previous century?

If you answer that 1) knowledge development will continue for a long time and 2) probably at an ever accelerating rate....

What does that say about what we know today?

Are we yet in a position to offer meaningful theories, let alone conclusions, about the kinds of issues addressed by the debate between religion and atheism?

Does anybody on any side really have a clue what we're talking about? Or do we just love talking?

Ok, your turn, go!

Science will end when humankind ends, just like everything else will end.

For someone who has at least some hinkling to thinking that intelligent life from beyond Earth has already visited earth, that seems like a bizarre narrow-focused choice of phrase to use.

From the start of this thread, I had one answer. When sentient life ends... science ends.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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