When Will Science End?
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16-12-2014, 07:27 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 07:23 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 04:44 PM)unfogged Wrote:  All of the evidence that we have points to death being the end and that when the electrochemical activity in the brain stops the consciousness does too.

If we return to the question of when science will end, we find a reply to your reasonable statement.

If it is true that science will continue for a very long time....

And if it is true that knowledge development will likely continue at an ever accelerating rate...

It follows that there a LOT of things we don't currently know. We may currently know just 1% of what we will know in just a few hundred years.

Seen in that light, statements like "all the evidence points to X" are essentially meaningless.

Here's an example. Only 100 years ago we didn't know about the hundreds of billions of galaxies we now know are there. 99%+ of the universe, we completely missed it.

The God question is a question about the ultimate nature of EVERYTHING. We still don't even know what "everything" refers to.

So my thesis is tjat all the evidence that we have points to us currently being unqualified to say anything useful about infinite scale questions such as death and God etc, the kinds of questions religion typically addresses.

In my thesis, theism and atheism are essentially the same thing, a bunch of folks experiencing the fun of fantasy knowings.

Yet you reject that there is a 1957 Chevy orbiting Pluto. If you do, then your thesis fails.

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16-12-2014, 07:34 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 07:18 PM)Free Wrote:  It's not a theory; it is the current state of our knowledge. We cannot assume there is anything more.

I'm not asking readers to assume there is anything more.

I'm asking them to not assume they know whether there is or isn't anything more.
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16-12-2014, 07:34 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 02:13 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  The trillions spent by the medical sciences are all about saving people's lives except that um, uh....

.... nobody has the slightest clue whether we are better off alive or dead. Trillions of science dollars, all based on nothing but a particular brand of faith.

Medicine sounds like it's all about reason and science etc but to a very great degree all the technology and science etc serve just another faith based belief system.

Da'fuq are you talking about?

We observe the evidence of millions of years worth of every organism that has ever existed doing everything they can to survive. To be alive.

And you equate medicine with faith? Methinks you have an agenda that is slightly less than intellectually honest. Why don't you just come out with what you're trying to say and let everyone decide if it's worth a listen.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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16-12-2014, 07:37 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 07:23 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  In my thesis, theism and atheism are essentially the same thing, a bunch of folks experiencing the fun of fantasy knowings.

Then you do not fully understand atheism, so let me explain something to you.

The day you were born was the most natural and most honest state of existence you ever had. You did not come into this world with beliefs in anything at all. You were completely innocent.

Then, as time went on, someone presented to you a book called the bible, and a few other books, and from there you formulated a belief system that was not natural to your original state of existence that you had on the day you were born.

On the day you were born, you had no beliefs in any gods at all. That is exactly the natural state of atheism. You were BORN that way, but because of beliefs and teachings from others, you have strayed away from your most natural and most honest state of existence.

And it all started with a singular book.

So now you live your life according to what you believe, as opposed to what you were born to be.

You were born with a lack of beliefs because that IS your natural state of existence.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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16-12-2014, 07:37 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
Quote:Why don't you just come out with what you're trying to say and let everyone decide if it's worth a listen.

If you'd like to actually read the thread, you'll see I've already done that. Here it is again, just for you.

Quote:If it is true that science will continue for a very long time....

And if it is true that knowledge development will likely continue at an ever accelerating rate...

It follows that there a LOT of things we don't currently know. We may currently know just 1% of what we will know in just a few hundred years.

Seen in that light, statements like "all the evidence points to X" are essentially meaningless.
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16-12-2014, 07:43 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
Quote:Then you do not fully understand atheism, so let me explain something to you.

There are different flavors of atheism.

Some people simply don't hold a belief in God, and that's the end of it.

Other people spend every day promoting atheism on the net, that is something else.

Nobody was born with the need to promote atheism on the net. There's nothing more "natural" about promoting that ideology than there is about promoting a religious ideology.

Both the atheist salesman and the theist salesman (on both sides it's usually men, a clue there) have been indoctrinated by cultural assumptions that existed before they were born.

What both kinds of salesmen share is the assumption that they are in a position to know.
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16-12-2014, 07:46 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 07:37 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
Quote:Why don't you just come out with what you're trying to say and let everyone decide if it's worth a listen.

If you'd like to actually read the thread, you'll see I've already done that. Here it is again, just for you.

Quote:If it is true that science will continue for a very long time....

And if it is true that knowledge development will likely continue at an ever accelerating rate...

It follows that there a LOT of things we don't currently know. We may currently know just 1% of what we will know in just a few hundred years.

Seen in that light, statements like "all the evidence points to X" are essentially meaningless.

So what are you saying? I'm not following any point that you are trying to make.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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16-12-2014, 07:54 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 07:23 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  It follows that there a LOT of things we don't currently know. We may currently know just 1% of what we will know in just a few hundred years.

Agreed, at least in principle.

Quote:Seen in that light, statements like "all the evidence points to X" are essentially meaningless.

No, they identify the best answer we have now. It is ridiculous to not believe anything at all because someday the evidence may be discovered that overturns that belief. If there is strong evidence for a proposition now then it is reasonable to believe that proposition now.

Quote:Here's an example. Only 100 years ago we didn't know about the hundreds of billions of galaxies we now know are there. 99%+ of the universe, we completely missed it.

Right. Scientists believed that the galaxy was the entire universe base don the evidence that they had. When more evidence was found the belief was revised to be in accord with that evidence. That seems to be a sensible approach to take for most things. You have to go with what you know and understand.

Quote:The God question is a question about the ultimate nature of EVERYTHING. We still don't even know what "everything" refers to.

And, in general, atheists aren't answering the question of the ultimate nature of EVERYTHING. We are looking at specific claims being made by theists about the existence of specific gods that have undertaken specific actions. Those claims do not have sufficient evidence now to be accepted now. If new evidence is discovered then the belief may change like it did for the universe.

Quote:So my thesis is tjat all the evidence that we have points to us currently being unqualified to say anything useful about infinite scale questions such as death and God etc, the kinds of questions religion typically addresses.

To claim we can't say anything useful is just wrong. We may not be able to say things with 100% certainty but we can be pretty close; certainly past the 'useful' mark. Religion, on the other hand, can't say anything about death or god that can be shown to have any value at all. Making things up out of whole cloth doesn't get you anywhere.

Quote:In my thesis, theism and atheism are essentially the same thing, a bunch of folks experiencing the fun of fantasy knowings.

In my thesis your thesis completely misses the point.

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16-12-2014, 07:54 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 07:23 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  In my thesis, theism and atheism are essentially the same thing, a bunch of folks experiencing the fun of fantasy knowings.

I’m an agnostic atheist as are most of us on this forum. This simply means that I haven’t seen any evidence of gods. Could there be? I suppose.

So your statement above with regards to atheism and gnostic atheists doesn’t apply.

The difference is I base what I accept as fact only what has been rigorously tested by the scientific process, and even then I understand the limitations of our current understandings.

Theism more closely adheres to your definition of “fantasy knowings” for obvious reasons.

Your attempt to paint the two as equal fails.

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“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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16-12-2014, 07:55 PM (This post was last modified: 16-12-2014 08:00 PM by Free.)
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 07:43 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
Quote:Then you do not fully understand atheism, so let me explain something to you.

There are different flavors of atheism.

Some people simply don't hold a belief in God, and that's the end of it.

Other people spend every day promoting atheism on the net, that is something else.

Nobody was born with the need to promote atheism on the net. There's nothing more "natural" about promoting that ideology than there is about promoting a religious ideology.

Both the atheist salesman and the theist salesman (on both sides it's usually men, a clue there) have been indoctrinated by cultural assumptions that existed before they were born.

What both kinds of salesmen share is the assumption that they are in a position to know.

This fails to address my statement as a whole, and appears to be an avoidance.

Most theists such as yourself do not do well with my previous statement, and tend to avoid it because it is indeed difficult to contend with it.

Why?

Because it is true.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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