When Will Science End?
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16-12-2014, 07:55 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 07:43 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
Quote:Then you do not fully understand atheism, so let me explain something to you.

There are different flavors of atheism.

Some people simply don't hold a belief in God, and that's the end of it.

Other people spend every day promoting atheism on the net, that is something else.

Nobody was born with the need to promote atheism on the net. There's nothing more "natural" about promoting that ideology than there is about promoting a religious ideology.

Both the atheist salesman and the theist salesman (on both sides it's usually men, a clue there) have been indoctrinated by cultural assumptions that existed before they were born.

What both kinds of salesmen share is the assumption that they are in a position to know.

The POINT is that after examining all the myths humans cooked up and dismissed about an afterlife, and what we know about ALL THE OTHER ORGANISMS that die, saying "We don't know if there is one" is the equivalent to saying "We don't know if a 1957 Chevy orbits the sun". The fact is we have good EVIDENCE, based on what we know, to make a generally reliable statement about many things.

There may be pink unicorns too. We don't know for sure. Thumbsup

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-12-2014, 08:03 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 07:43 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  There are different flavors of atheism.

Some people simply don't hold a belief in God, and that's the end of it.

Other people spend every day promoting atheism on the net, that is something else.

Nobody was born with the need to promote atheism on the net. There's nothing more "natural" about promoting that ideology than there is about promoting a religious ideology.

Ah. You're offended that some people are outspoken about their atheism. Whatever. I'm offended by theists pushing their unwarranted beliefs onto others, especially through legislation.

Note though, that this is a forum by and (primarily) for atheists. Anybody wanting to 'promote atheism' would be doing it elsewhere. We respond here to theists and are quite happy to explain why we don't believe but we aren't pushing our beliefs on others by posting here.

If your purpose is really to prove to atheists that they are just as irrational as theists then I think that's pretty funny. I'm satisfied that I have good reasons to reject god claims and always find the "you have just as much faith as me" argument to be very indicative of how insecure the person making it is.

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16-12-2014, 08:07 PM (This post was last modified: 16-12-2014 08:19 PM by JDog554.)
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 07:43 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  There are different flavors of atheism.

Atheism isn't ice cream. You either are one or your not, there are not different kinds. Christianity on the other hand, has many flavors, so many, it makes Baskin Robbins jealous.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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16-12-2014, 11:02 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
Another guy making vague wishy-washy "science not good" posts Rolleyes Bozo, are you religious? Or are you just some guy who dabbles in philosophy? 'Cos whatever point you have, you're not getting it across.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-12-2014, 11:59 PM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 07:23 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Seen in that light, statements like "all the evidence points to X" are essentially meaningless.

(16-12-2014 07:23 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  So my thesis is tjat all the evidence that we have points to us currently being unqualified to say anything useful about infinite scale questions such as death and God etc, the kinds of questions religion typically addresses.

Your thesis is self-stultifying.

Death is not a question, it is a phenomenon. Death is not infinite, it is extremely immediate and personal. It is the ultimate finity.

God is neither a question nor an answer. It is an excuse not to ask the question. That is the 0th Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Question!

Religion does not address questions, it presumes answers.

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17-12-2014, 12:09 AM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 07:43 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Nobody was born with the need to promote atheism on the net. There's nothing more "natural" about promoting that ideology than there is about promoting a religious ideology.

Both the atheist salesman and the theist salesman (on both sides it's usually men, a clue there) have been indoctrinated by cultural assumptions that existed before they were born.

What both kinds of salesmen share is the assumption that they are in a position to know.

So. You. A theist. Posting prolifically on a forum called "The Thinking Atheist"...

Listen, I heard this great joke about what the pot said to the kettle. Remind me to tell it to you some time.

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17-12-2014, 12:43 AM
RE: When Will Science End?
(16-12-2014 07:04 PM)Free Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 06:44 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Can anything formulate another way of gathering information that isn't data+ hypothisis ratified by experimentation?

We, as humans, would not, and could not, know or understand.

At least not currently.

We're not talking about a biological limitation; this is logic and epistimology. It's axiomatic.
How would anything demonstrate the accuracy/ truth/ whatever of a statement without testing it? Unless you want to appeal to intelectus or omnicence or something that doesn't rely on the limitations placed on organisms as we understand it.

(16-12-2014 07:23 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  So my thesis is tjat all the evidence that we have points to us currently being unqualified to say anything useful about infinite scale questions such as death and God etc, the kinds of questions religion typically addresses.

The fuck is an "Infinite Scale Question" and how would death, by any definition of the term, be infinite?

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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17-12-2014, 01:05 AM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2014 01:08 AM by Shadow Fox.)
RE: When Will Science End?
Science will never end. Even when there is nothing left to explain, we will still continue to use it with our imagination to improve on something. Science will last as long as we do and probably longer.

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17-12-2014, 03:14 AM
RE: When Will Science End?
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17-12-2014, 06:24 AM
RE: When Will Science End?
Quote:Seen in that light, statements like "all the evidence points to X" are essentially meaningless.

Quote:No, they identify the best answer we have now. It is ridiculous to not believe anything at all because someday the evidence may be discovered that overturns that belief. If there is strong evidence for a proposition now then it is reasonable to believe that proposition now.

Thanks for your reply.

Ok, let's consider the situation of a 7 year old kid. Compared to the family dog, the kid is very smart and can do many impressive things.

But can a 7 year old kid understand the ultimate nature of all reality? It seems to me a smart 7 year old would say, "I'm not old enough to know that yet" whereas the less smart 7 year old might make up an answer and then argue about it with his friends.

My thesis is that both theists and atheists, to the degree they think they have a meaningful useful answer to such enormous questions, are like the less smart seven year old kid in the example above.

This is not complicated. What lies beyond the observable universe? Scientists simply say, "we don't know yet" and they don't find it necessary to have an answer. They realize we just aren't there yet on that question. Simple.

What makes it not simple is that humans are incredibly socially competitive, and thus many people can't be happy with a simple "I don't know" because then there's no way to be superior to somebody else. And this drive for imaginary superiority is a primary driver of theist vs. atheist debates, and most other human interactions as well.

Quote:Right. Scientists believed that the galaxy was the entire universe base don the evidence that they had. When more evidence was found the belief was revised to be in accord with that evidence. That seems to be a sensible approach to take for most things. You have to go with what you know and understand.

Right, we don't say, "we have no evidence for those billions of other galaxies, therefore they don't exist".

Instead we say, "we don't know if there are more galaxies than one or not".

Quote:And, in general, atheists aren't answering the question of the ultimate nature of EVERYTHING. We are looking at specific claims being made by theists about the existence of specific gods that have undertaken specific actions. Those claims do not have sufficient evidence now to be accepted now. If new evidence is discovered then the belief may change like it did for the universe.

Atheists are making a counter claim, though many or most don't realize it.

Atheists are claiming human reason is qualified to come to some meaningful theory or conclusion regarding issues the scale of the God question.

I decline to accept this huge claim for the same reason I decline to believe in Bible stories. Not enough credible evidence to support the claims of either atheists or theists.
Quote:To claim we can't say anything useful is just wrong. We may not be able to say things with 100% certainty but we can be pretty close; certainly past the 'useful' mark.

Reason is indeed very useful for very many things. But then so is religion.

But being useful for many things does not automatically qualify reason or holy books to be useful for EVERYTHING. If reason or holy books are to be declared useful and authoritative for questions of this huge scale, that has to be proven first, we can't just take it as an obvious given.

Quote:Religion, on the other hand, can't say anything about death or god that can be shown to have any value at all.

If the theories of religion had no value at all, they would have been discarded thousands of years ago. Clearly they have a value to billions of human beings, but that doesn't mean the theories are therefore correct.

Quote:In my thesis your thesis completely misses the point.

Ok then, no problem, so go for it. Sell me your "religion".

Prove to me that human reason can deliver meaningful answers about the ultimate nature of everything.

And don't forget please, we currently don't even know what the word "everything" refers to.

Please explain how we can know what does or doesn't lie at the heart of something we can't even begin to define.

Go for it!
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