When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
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10-10-2017, 03:18 AM
RE: When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(06-10-2017 12:27 AM)LightSage Wrote:  I just thought "Wow, the universe is amazing!"

This is a really interesting thread topic. I had never thought about things in this way.

LightSage, from your description, it sounds as if you fell in love with the amazing universe first, and science gave you the means to learn more about the thing you love. And I agree the universe is lovable! Loving science sounds to me like loving a method, but I guess we use the word "science" as shorthand for the things that the method allows us to discover. That makes more sense to me. And I can imagine how a working scientist can love the process of discovering more.

Loving reason or rationality, though, sounds strange to me. For one thing, reason and rationality demand a certain dispassion. Surely they require that our thinking is not affected too much by emotion when we ponder something. So loving reason sounds a bit like being passionate about having no passions -- a paradox.

When I think of reason or rationality (is there a difference?) I think of something more like a moral duty. Reason demands that when XYZ is shown to be true, we need to accept XYZ, whether we like it or not. Reason requires that when we calculate a course of action, we have to do so according to facts and not wishful thinking. We can be pleased that things work out well, or pleased that we managed to control ourselves to plan well, but that doesn't sound like love to me.

Is there maybe a necessarily irrational element to love? The illusion that the thing you love is somehow better than any other thing, possessing a special quality which makes it uniquely lovable, which can't be quantified or scientifically demonstrated. The person you love can never be shown in a lab to be more lovable than the person loved by someone else.

Or there may be a way in which the irrationality of love allows us, in the long run, a greater knowledge than reason. For example, in some cases you have to love something before you understand it. For example, people study music theory and the history of music because they already love music. Nobody learns about the revolutionary use of key changes and recurrent themes in Beethoven and then loves the music. It's the other way round.

Everybody's read Plato's Symposium, right? The madness of love is the only thing powerful enough to prod us out of youthful stupidity and learn about the world. Though the eventual method we use may well be the scientific one.
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10-10-2017, 06:05 AM
RE: When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(10-10-2017 03:18 AM)Belaqua Wrote:  Loving reason or rationality, though, sounds strange to me. For one thing, reason and rationality demand a certain dispassion. Surely they require that our thinking is not affected too much by emotion when we ponder something. So loving reason sounds a bit like being passionate about having no passions -- a paradox.

I have learned to love reason after following it from a sense of duty at first, because I discovered it was dependable, beautiful, and honest.
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10-10-2017, 07:22 AM
RE: When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
I have always loved science, reason, and rationality. I am religious. At one time I was very disenchanted with religion largely because I believed that I had to reconcile religion with science. I now consider that to be a false dilemma. I have become completely comfortable with understanding religion through the lens of religion, and science through the lens of science. Religiously, I will accept that the year is 5778 and this is the age of the world. Scientifically, I will accept that the universe is something like 14 billion years old, that the earth formed over 4 billion years ago, and that man evolved over the course of millions of years. I don't use science to understand religion, and I don't use religion to understand science. The physical world is a place that I can poke and probe and place beneath a microscope and understand in accordance with the reason that I apply to physical things. I don't apply the same rules to my understanding of the Divine. When things in the physical realm seem to contradict my understanding of the Divine, I simply think that it is that much more marvelous-- and miraculous.
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10-10-2017, 08:48 AM
RE: When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
I fell in love with beer, boobs, bikes.
I work in science and technology.
Love it?
Some days.
But I'd say it's not really necessary to love Science/Reason/Rationality to not believe in God.
But you do need to lack any respect for all of them to believe in God.

[Image: barfly_condenados_pelo_vicio.gif]
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10-10-2017, 02:17 PM
RE: When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(10-10-2017 07:22 AM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  I have always loved science, reason, and rationality. I am religious. At one time I was very disenchanted with religion largely because I believed that I had to reconcile religion with science. I now consider that to be a false dilemma. I have become completely comfortable with understanding religion through the lens of religion, and science through the lens of science. Religiously, I will accept that the year is 5778 and this is the age of the world. Scientifically, I will accept that the universe is something like 14 billion years old, that the earth formed over 4 billion years ago, and that man evolved over the course of millions of years. I don't use science to understand religion, and I don't use religion to understand science. The physical world is a place that I can poke and probe and place beneath a microscope and understand in accordance with the reason that I apply to physical things. I don't apply the same rules to my understanding of the Divine. When things in the physical realm seem to contradict my understanding of the Divine, I simply think that it is that much more marvelous-- and miraculous.

I have worked with a few scientists who were also religious -- not many, but a few. They seemed to do more or less what you describe; they compartmentalized science and religion, and keep them more or less separate. From my perspective this always seemed a little odd, but they were good scientists, and human beings are, I suppose, masters at managing cognitive dissonance.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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10-10-2017, 02:20 PM
RE: When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(10-10-2017 08:48 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  I fell in love with beer, boobs, bikes.

I have encountered plenty of religious boobs . . . or wait . . . did you mean . . .? Um... never mind. Blush

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"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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10-10-2017, 02:26 PM
RE: When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(10-10-2017 02:17 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 07:22 AM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  I have always loved science, reason, and rationality. I am religious. At one time I was very disenchanted with religion largely because I believed that I had to reconcile religion with science. I now consider that to be a false dilemma. I have become completely comfortable with understanding religion through the lens of religion, and science through the lens of science. Religiously, I will accept that the year is 5778 and this is the age of the world. Scientifically, I will accept that the universe is something like 14 billion years old, that the earth formed over 4 billion years ago, and that man evolved over the course of millions of years. I don't use science to understand religion, and I don't use religion to understand science. The physical world is a place that I can poke and probe and place beneath a microscope and understand in accordance with the reason that I apply to physical things. I don't apply the same rules to my understanding of the Divine. When things in the physical realm seem to contradict my understanding of the Divine, I simply think that it is that much more marvelous-- and miraculous.

I have worked with a few scientists who were also religious -- not many, but a few. They seemed to do more or less what you describe; they compartmentalized science and religion, and keep them more or less separate. From my perspective this always seemed a little odd, but they were good scientists, and human beings are, I suppose, masters at managing cognitive dissonance.

I don't think that recognizing a false dilemma constitutes cognitive dissonance.
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10-10-2017, 02:34 PM
RE: When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(10-10-2017 02:26 PM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 02:17 PM)Dr H Wrote:  I have worked with a few scientists who were also religious -- not many, but a few. They seemed to do more or less what you describe; they compartmentalized science and religion, and keep them more or less separate. From my perspective this always seemed a little odd, but they were good scientists, and human beings are, I suppose, masters at managing cognitive dissonance.

I don't think that recognizing a false dilemma constitutes cognitive dissonance.


Yonadav, do you believe in a literal god that exists 'out there' in the world apart from yourself? I've met a couple of very bright believers online who had no trouble separating the empirical from the religious. Unfortunately most believers seem to believe rote things in rote ways from rote sources such as the bible or koran. Do you utilize such a book and if so do you look to it for your marching orders or only for inspiration?

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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10-10-2017, 02:55 PM (This post was last modified: 10-10-2017 03:51 PM by Yonadav Kenyon.)
RE: When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(10-10-2017 02:34 PM)whateverist Wrote:  
(10-10-2017 02:26 PM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  I don't think that recognizing a false dilemma constitutes cognitive dissonance.


Yonadav, do you believe in a literal god that exists 'out there' in the world apart from yourself? I've met a couple of very bright believers online who had no trouble separating the empirical from the religious. Unfortunately most believers seem to believe rote things in rote ways from rote sources such as the bible or koran. Do you utilize such a book and if so do you look to it for your marching orders or only for inspiration?

I am not sure how to answer your question Dr H. I'm an Orthodox Jew, so there are codes of Jewish law that I regularly 'take my marching orders' from. I routinely ask my Rabbi for instructions about Jewish law that I am not certain of. Ritual is a part of my daily life, so I do a lot of things that might seem 'rote'.
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11-10-2017, 01:14 PM
RE: When You Fell In Love With Science/Reason/Rationality
(10-10-2017 02:26 PM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  I don't think that recognizing a false dilemma constitutes cognitive dissonance.

If that's all it is. But if two pieces of information contradict each other, and you accept both -- for example:

"Religiously, I will accept that the year is 5778 and this is the age of the world. Scientifically, I will accept that the universe is something like 14 billion years old, that the earth formed over 4 billion years ago,..."

That's pretty much the definition of 'cognitive dissonance': "simultaneously holding two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values."

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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