When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
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10-02-2017, 01:06 PM
When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
When does a human become a human? Is this even a question that can be answered with science?

I run into the argument that pro-lifers make frequently that because something is 1. human and 2. alive, that it has rights/you can't "murder" it. But isn't sperm both human and alive?

Then there's the issue of a fetus having its own DNA, which seems a rather arbitrary reason not to abort. I was reading that each sperm has different DNA, that's why you don't look identical to your siblings. Perhaps it is irrelevant to determining whether abortion should be legal, but it would be good to understand better how unique each sperm is. Can anyone shed light on this?

There there is the issue of fetuses feeling pain, which some say starts around 20 weeks. I don't think feeling pain is a good argument against abortion because if the goal is to avoid causing pain to a human, they should outlaw childbirth haha.
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10-02-2017, 01:45 PM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2017 01:51 PM by cactus.)
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Sperm contains a haploid genome. Whether or not you want to classify that as "human" is really up to you. There is no "correct" way to use language. Most people would probably laugh at you if you called masturbation murder, though, so there's that. Wink

Call the morning after pill murder, and fewer people will laugh. Call a second trimester abortion murder, and even fewer people will laugh.
You can't please everyone, but you can definitely please yourself. Speaking of which, I'm gonna go murder some sperm now.

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
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10-02-2017, 01:52 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
I don't think there is any easy answer to the question. Prior to the development of the nervous system and brain I have no problem treating it as not-human. After the point where it could survive outside the mother I think it has to be treated as fully human.

The problem is that there is a big gray area between those two points and medical science pushes the latter back periodically. The other consideration is that even after brain development begins it is still an issue of fetal rights vs the mother's rights and, in that case, the mother's rights have to take precedence in my opinion.

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10-02-2017, 02:20 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
There is no final answer.
In my opinion, a clump of cells with no brain and no neural tube is not a human, (yet). It's a potential human. Women are perfectly capable of deciding if they wish
to allow potentiality to become actual, without my help.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-02-2017, 02:20 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
25th week seems like a good starting point. Christians probably will disagree but no one is forcing them to have abortion.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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10-02-2017, 02:26 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 01:06 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  There there is the issue of fetuses feeling pain, which some say starts around 20 weeks. I don't think feeling pain is a good argument against abortion because if the goal is to avoid causing pain to a human, they should outlaw childbirth haha.

What about letting someone in horrific pain, take their own life?

I have come to the conclusion that people who want to decide such things for others, are just control freaks looking to get off.

"Ooh look: I made someone live, aren't I wonderful?!"

Yes, you're practically a fucking god. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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10-02-2017, 02:38 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 01:52 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I don't think there is any easy answer to the question. Prior to the development of the nervous system and brain I have no problem treating it as not-human. After the point where it could survive outside the mother I think it has to be treated as fully human.

The problem is that there is a big gray area between those two points and medical science pushes the latter back periodically. The other consideration is that even after brain development begins it is still an issue of fetal rights vs the mother's rights and, in that case, the mother's rights have to take precedence in my opinion.

It is also unclear when the second point, surviving outside the mother, is actually possible.

A quick google gave me this:

"According to studies between 2003 and 2005, 20 to 35 percent of babies born at 23 weeks of gestation survive, while 50 to 70 percent of babies born at 24 to 25 weeks, and more than 90 percent born at 26 to 27 weeks, survive."
From Wikipedia
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10-02-2017, 02:57 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
I don't trust a newbie who has 5 posts asking such questions. I wonder if you're a xian trying to smuggle in your own agenda?

Until proven incorrect I am giving you a negative rep. This rep' will change if I decide you are sincere.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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10-02-2017, 03:05 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Human or not, if it's a threat to the mother's health/life she has the right to "stand her ground," and shoot herself in the vagina in her own defense. Or, you know, exercise some far less dangerous method. This is why conservatism bugs me at the purely philosophical level. If a black teenager's very presence on the street puts you in such dire fear for your life that you can shoot him to protect yourself, why is a far more humane termination not acceptable for a fetus that threatens your health, safety, well-being, or way of life/pursuit of happiness?
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10-02-2017, 03:07 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 02:57 PM)Banjo Wrote:  I don't trust a newbie who has 5 posts asking such questions. I wonder if you're a xian trying to smuggle in your own agenda?

Until proven incorrect I am giving you a negative rep. This rep' will change if I decide you are sincere.

Not sure what a "xian" is... also not sure how asking questions gives me negative rep on a forum for Thinking Atheists.

I'm going to the protest tomorrow to support Planned Parenthood and this topic is on my mind. I'm pro-choice...does that matter? Not that I can prove I don't have an agenda. I would think the burden of proof falls on you to show that I have one anyway.
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