When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
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21-02-2017, 07:36 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(21-02-2017 02:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:There is no way to discover objective morals, morality is just a personal belief. You cannot apply your personal beliefs as binding constraints on others.

I can, by voting for candidates that represent the values I hold, or at least support policies that represent those values. Folks like Rocketsurgeon might favor unrestricted abortion no matter whatever the stage of pregnancy or circumstance, but as long as his views are a minority view of among the electorate, and the candidates they choose, my values, in the form of legal restrictions, are binding on him and others.
If you don't respect other people's opinions and autonomy and feel comfortable interferring, assuming you know best and are happy to support use of force to get them to comply to your own opinions. The society you describe is one where the majority rules and can vote to control the minority on anything they choose.

Not a society I would agree with.
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21-02-2017, 07:46 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(21-02-2017 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(21-02-2017 05:43 PM)Rik Wrote:  A mass of undifferentiated cells is not a human being.

A mass of somewhat differentiated cells lacking a circulatory system, nervous system, brain or other organs is not a human being.

This argument is science-based.

The idea that a woman should be free to opt for an abortion after the fetus has become viable is not an argument that should be defended. The mother had 7+ months to maker the decision - at that point she has committed to having the child.

It's not a cat, a dog or a dolphin, nor is it a rock. It is a living human in its very early stages of life.

It is not yet a human any more than an egg is a chicken.
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21-02-2017, 07:58 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(21-02-2017 07:46 PM)Rik Wrote:  
(21-02-2017 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It's not a cat, a dog or a dolphin, nor is it a rock. It is a living human in its very early stages of life.

It is not yet a human any more than an egg is a chicken.
The egg has been fertilised, it is a growing embryo or a growing fetus. It is 100% human, and alive.


When you talk of an egg are you talking about a chicken egg? Is it fertilised? Is there a developing chicken inside that egg?
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21-02-2017, 08:09 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(21-02-2017 07:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If you don't respect other people's opinions and autonomy and feel comfortable interferring, assuming you know best and are happy to support use of force to get them to comply to your own opinions. The society you describe is one where the majority rules and can vote to control the minority on anything they choose.

Not a society I would agree with.

I only care about the sort of society I want to live in, and insuring that the candidates I vote for and support get elected, and serve in ways conducive to producing and fostering that sort of society I want to be a part of, a society that represents my value system.

Others may want an entirely different kind of society than the one I opt for, but as long people like myself are among the voting majority, we have little to worry about.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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21-02-2017, 08:14 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(21-02-2017 07:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(21-02-2017 07:46 PM)Rik Wrote:  It is not yet a human any more than an egg is a chicken.
The egg has been fertilised, it is a growing embryo or a growing fetus. It is 100% human, and alive.

With a 50% chance of being spontaneously aborted, a non-zero probability of serious genetic defects and a non-zero probability of implanting in the Fallopian tube requiring surgical removal, so pretty much a less than 50-50 chance of becoming a human being.
And it is most certainly not a person and only persons have protection under the law.

Quote:When you talk of an egg are you talking about a chicken egg?
Yes.
Quote:Is it fertilised?
Yes.
Quote:Is there a developing chicken inside that egg?
It's fertilized, it is a chicken embryo. It is not a chicken.

Quote:Fetal death and early delivery are classified as follows:

Abortion: Death of the fetus or passage of products of conception (fetus and placenta) before 20 wk gestation

Fetal demise (stillbirth): Fetal death after 20 wk

Preterm delivery: Passage of a live fetus between 20 and 37 wk (see Preterm Labor)
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21-02-2017, 10:12 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(21-02-2017 08:14 PM)Rik Wrote:  
(21-02-2017 07:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  The egg has been fertilised, it is a growing embryo or a growing fetus. It is 100% human, and alive.

With a 50% chance of being spontaneously aborted, a non-zero probability of serious genetic defects and a non-zero probability of implanting in the Fallopian tube requiring surgical removal, so pretty much a less than 50-50 chance of becoming a human being.
And it is most certainly not a person and only persons have protection under the law.
100% human.
But around 50% chance of making it to full term and being born.


(21-02-2017 08:14 PM)Rik Wrote:  
Quote:Is there a developing chicken inside that egg?
It's fertilized, it is a chicken embryo. It is not a chicken.
A chicken embryo, a chicken chick, a chicken adult, these are all phases in the life of a chicken. All of which are chicken.

For human we have Human embryo, human fetus, human baby, human infant, human teenager, human adult. All of which are human.

(21-02-2017 08:14 PM)Rik Wrote:  
Quote:Fetal death and early delivery are classified as follows:

Abortion: Death of the fetus or passage of products of conception (fetus and placenta) before 20 wk gestation

Fetal demise (stillbirth): Fetal death after 20 wk

Preterm delivery: Passage of a live fetus between 20 and 37 wk (see Preterm Labor)
I don't understand your logic.
Just because a certain percentage of children don't live long enough to make it to being adults, it doesn't mean they weren't human beings.
Just as, just because a certain percentage of fetus don't live long enough to be born doesn't mean they weren't human beings.
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21-02-2017, 10:20 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(21-02-2017 08:09 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I only care about the sort of society I want to live in, and insuring that the candidates I vote for and support get elected, and serve in ways conducive to producing and fostering that sort of society I want to be a part of, a society that represents my value system.

Others may want an entirely different kind of society than the one I opt for, but as long people like myself are among the voting majority, we have little to worry about.
You set yourself up for an aggressive adversarial system where those that win power get to force themselves on those that don't. You show no interest or respect fro the freedoms of others or for a system of non violence.

Seems you would be happy banning Muslims and Mexicans into your country. (or people with Muslim names)
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22-02-2017, 07:59 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(21-02-2017 10:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You set yourself up for an aggressive adversarial system where those that win power get to force themselves on those that don't. You show no interest or respect fro the freedoms of others or for a system of non violence.

That's the system we live in, it may not be perfect, but I'm content with it, that's just the nature of democracy. The majority voting population decides which candidates govern, the candidates select supreme court judges, who interpret and apply constitutional principles, etc..

And the only interest I have is in myself, my family, and my community, and what serves them best what upholds their values. And my circle of concern diminishes significantly outside of that. Unless the the condition of "others" in some way negatively effects the people I care about, than I can't say I'm all that concerned abut it.

Quote:Seems you would be happy banning Muslims and Mexicans into your country. (or people with Muslim names)

No, I'm perfectly fine accepting immigrants that will hold similar values, and will contribute to the economic health of our country. Brain drain immigrants, doctors, engineers, nurse, etc.. from other countries, but not the sort that's likely to take up considerable resources.

There may be some poor refugee somewhere hoping to come to America to start a new life, a complete charity case. It's just not my problem, tough luck.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-02-2017, 08:34 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Tyranny of the majority.

One shouldn't wish for such a system if one wouldn't be prepared to hand over all they hold dear should they find themselves on the thin edge of it.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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22-02-2017, 08:48 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(22-02-2017 07:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  There may be some poor refugee somewhere hoping to come to America to start a new life, a complete charity case. It's just not my problem, tough luck.

How very Christian of you.

Perhaps you should read your bible again, especially Matthew 5:42 and 19:21. Or Hebrews 13:16. Or Luke 3:10-11. Or Ephesians 4:27-28. Or Proverbs 22:9 and 29:7. And my personal favourite, which irritates modern Republican right-wing xtians to no end: 1 Timothy 6:17-18.

Those whole "give to the poor" and "throw away your riches" things in your bible are awfully inconvenient, aren't they?
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