When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
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10-02-2017, 03:10 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 03:07 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  Not sure what a "xian" is... also not sure how asking questions gives me negative rep on a forum for Thinking Atheists.

I'm going to the protest tomorrow to support Planned Parenthood and this topic is on my mind. I'm pro-choice...does that matter? Not that I can prove I don't have an agenda. I would think the burden of proof falls on you to show that I have one anyway.

xian=Christian.

Having had many years experience, I smell something. I am prepared to be proven wrong.

As said, when I am proven wrong I will change the rep'.

Xians do this ALL the time.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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10-02-2017, 03:24 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 02:38 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  
(10-02-2017 01:52 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I don't think there is any easy answer to the question. Prior to the development of the nervous system and brain I have no problem treating it as not-human. After the point where it could survive outside the mother I think it has to be treated as fully human.

The problem is that there is a big gray area between those two points and medical science pushes the latter back periodically. The other consideration is that even after brain development begins it is still an issue of fetal rights vs the mother's rights and, in that case, the mother's rights have to take precedence in my opinion.

It is also unclear when the second point, surviving outside the mother, is actually possible.

A quick google gave me this:

"According to studies between 2003 and 2005, 20 to 35 percent of babies born at 23 weeks of gestation survive, while 50 to 70 percent of babies born at 24 to 25 weeks, and more than 90 percent born at 26 to 27 weeks, survive."
From Wikipedia

I've done the data collection for a couple pediatric studies (preemies actually). The 24 weeks olds may "survive" but they are almost all severely impaired, (hearing, eyes, etc etc)

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-02-2017, 03:28 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 03:10 PM)Banjo Wrote:  xian=Christian.

Having had many years experience, I smell something. I am prepared to be proven wrong.

As said, when I am proven wrong I will change the rep'.

Xians do this ALL the time.

Maybe you could just check my post history and read my introduction? I deconverted from xianity Big Grin when I was a teenager. I'm well versed in the argument for pro-life because my parents are staunch pro-lifers and so I know how hard it can be to have a discussion about it.

I just don't want to go in tomorrow and run into someone making a "science" based argument and be caught off guard. So I posted this in the science area of an atheist board thinking I would find some strong arguments here.

The arguments I keep running into for pro life go along the lines of "Look, a heartbeat - therefore, it would be murder to kill it." This seems like bullshit but I have trouble articulating why it is bullshit.

Because I don't like the idea of believing things just because they are more comfortable (I'm a childfree woman and so the idea of abortion is more comfortable because I like my freedom), I am confronting the idea that terminating a fetus could be "murder." I'm a relativist and I would still be pro-choice even if I came to the conclusion that abortion is the killing of a human being because I don't believe in absolute morality. I just want to know how to make the strongest argument possible given the common arguments against abortion.
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10-02-2017, 03:39 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Fascinating.

#sigh
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10-02-2017, 04:06 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
They become human when they start paying taxes.


Signed

The IRS
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10-02-2017, 07:18 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Some never become human. See the oval office.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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10-02-2017, 07:42 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Maybe this? Consider





Tongue
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10-02-2017, 07:47 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Actually, the argument is not "when is one considered a human" but rather "when is one considered a person".

The argument hinges on personhood, not humanity. There is no doubt that a fetus is a potential human, but is it a person?
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10-02-2017, 08:49 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Person-hood is a legal concept. It is granted by law.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-02-2017, 10:37 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
The reason you run into trouble is that you let them bait you into discussing the (idealized, not-yet-existent) rights of the (possibly a person) fetus, picking the line of where to attach personhood and its attendant expectation of rights, when they have not established any of the premises for any of those points.

But more importantly, it's bait because even if we assume that a fetus becomes a full-civil-rights human the instant the sperm fertilizes the egg, it is still not enough to override the right to bodily integrity in the mother.

The reason is simple: nobody, repeat nobody, has the legal right to keep themselves alive, or be kept alive by government fiat, by endangering the life of another person. That other person must volunteer their health/safety/life be placed in jeopardy in order to legally have another person preserved. If I personally was attached to you in parallel hospital beds, and it was your body keeping me alive, then you would retain the right to terminate that connection at any point, because it is your bodily integrity being compromised on my behalf... and no one can coerce you or force you to continue risking your own life a minute longer than you volunteer to do so.

And I'm a full-grown person whose rights are unquestionably established!

If we start allowing the bodily integrity of one person be subjugated by the government on behalf of other people, it opens the legal door for deciding that Justice Scalia (for example) needs your liver more than some prisoner or other social undesirable, and they may be compelled to surrender their bodily integrity/safety in order to preserve the life of the "more important" person. That way lies Dachau and Auschwitz.

It's also why we talk about the "age of viability" (the age at which the fetus has a reasonable chance of being kept alive without the mother's body) being a point at which some rights begin to attach to the fetus... and even that is debatable. It's equally important to note that even then, it can still be overridden by doctors in case of medical emergency or emergent threat to the life/health of the mother.

In the United States, abortion is roughly 15 times less dangerous to a person's health than development/childbirth. Until you establish why we should make exceptions for fetuses that we would not make for full-grown adults, in terms of the right to invade another person's bodily integrity, it's pointless to discuss whether or not their alleged "right to life" does or should exist.

TL;dr - They don't have rights, under law, and even if they had every right alleged by the Christians, it still doesn't establish that there exists a legal right to risk one person's life involuntarily in order to keep another alive.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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