When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
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10-02-2017, 10:47 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(Before anyone says so, I know Scalia is already dead... I was intending to refer to a "while he was dying" scenario, and flubbed the wording.)

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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11-02-2017, 12:25 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
A homo sapiens becomes a human when it learns empathy.
Sadly the trend nowadays is me-first and not how-can-I-help
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11-02-2017, 12:26 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 10:47 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  (Before anyone says so, I know Scalia is already dead... I was intending to refer to a "while he was dying" scenario, and flubbed the wording.)

Ha! I was going to say, someone else should be using Scalia's liver about now. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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11-02-2017, 06:35 AM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2017 06:45 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 10:37 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The reason you run into trouble is that you let them bait you into discussing the (idealized, not-yet-existent) rights of the (possibly a person) fetus, picking the line of where to attach personhood and its attendant expectation of rights, when they have not established any of the premises for any of those points.

But more importantly, it's bait because even if we assume that a fetus becomes a full-civil-rights human the instant the sperm fertilizes the egg, it is still not enough to override the right to bodily integrity in the mother.

The reason is simple: nobody, repeat nobody, has the legal right to keep themselves alive, or be kept alive by government fiat, by endangering the life of another person. That other person must volunteer their health/safety/life be placed in jeopardy in order to legally have another person preserved. If I personally was attached to you in parallel hospital beds, and it was your body keeping me alive, then you would retain the right to terminate that connection at any point, because it is your bodily integrity being compromised on my behalf... and no one can coerce you or force you to continue risking your own life a minute longer than you volunteer to do so.

And I'm a full-grown person whose rights are unquestionably established!

If we start allowing the bodily integrity of one person be subjugated by the government on behalf of other people, it opens the legal door for deciding that Justice Scalia (for example) needs your liver more than some prisoner or other social undesirable, and they may be compelled to surrender their bodily integrity/safety in order to preserve the life of the "more important" person. That way lies Dachau and Auschwitz.

It's also why we talk about the "age of viability" (the age at which the fetus has a reasonable chance of being kept alive without the mother's body) being a point at which some rights begin to attach to the fetus... and even that is debatable. It's equally important to note that even then, it can still be overridden by doctors in case of medical emergency or emergent threat to the life/health of the mother.

In the United States, abortion is roughly 15 times less dangerous to a person's health than development/childbirth. Until you establish why we should make exceptions for fetuses that we would not make for full-grown adults, in terms of the right to invade another person's bodily integrity, it's pointless to discuss whether or not their alleged "right to life" does or should exist.

TL;dr - They don't have rights, under law, and even if they had every right alleged by the Christians, it still doesn't establish that there exists a legal right to risk one person's life involuntarily in order to keep another alive.

There is also another issue related to this. The amount of resources required to keep a preemie alive is astronomical.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2...lar-babies

Virtually no parent(s) has these resources, thus the limited resources eventually consumed, have to come from somewhere, (ie from the rest of society).
Spending millions of dollars on 1 baby, which will inevitably requite further vast resources to care for and educate, while others get no care or sub-optimal care, is immoral.

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11-02-2017, 07:01 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Far as I'm concerned ya don't give birth to a human, ya give birth to a fucking primate. Socialization and education make a primate human, and sometimes not even then. Tongue

Also, the whole thing to me is incredibly asinine. It's not a discussion of thought nor reason but rather shallow emotional reflex. I ain't pro-life, life don't need my fucking help. When the water is wet and the sun warm, life abounds.

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11-02-2017, 07:43 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
When a fetus can exist outside of the womb without any additional assistance, that can be a benchmark for when a fetus becomes a human being, but technology can assist in keeping that fetus alive when it's born prematurely.

Technology can act as an external womb so to speak, allowing a fetus to live and for organs to develop fully to increase the chances of survival.

My grandson was born a month premature. On his own, he most likely wouldn't have survived. His lungs weren't as developed as they needed to be. He was life flighted in a helicopter to a hospital that specialized in neonatal care. He spent a month in that hospital touch and go between life and death. He survived and is the greatest joy in my life.

So I would say survivability is a good place to start.

I will also say that I'm pro-choice and as such, a mother has a choice she can make about the survival of her fetus. I don't think it's a choice she should have to make alone. I do think that the father of said fetus should also be included in that choice.

When it comes to a murderer who kills a pregnant woman, that killer is killing a potential new life and that crime would be hard to adjust for.

If I burn down a house that contains the only copy of a hand written book that had the potential of being a best seller, netting the author millions, is my crime only arson or is it also the destruction of a priceless potential work of art ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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11-02-2017, 08:37 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
In Australia, abortion is legal until the 24th week of gestation. That's good enough for me—as a workable benchmark for something becoming a human being.

(10-02-2017 01:06 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  I was reading that each sperm has different DNA, that's why you don't look identical to your siblings.

And just to clarify... monozygotic (identical) twins originate from the same egg/sperm combination, so they do have identical DNA. The zygote is fertilised by a single sperm, but then divides into two.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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11-02-2017, 09:03 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(11-02-2017 08:37 AM)SYZ Wrote:  In Australia, abortion is legal until the 24th week of gestation. That's good enough for me—as a workable benchmark for something becoming a human being.

(10-02-2017 01:06 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  I was reading that each sperm has different DNA, that's why you don't look identical to your siblings.

And just to clarify... monozygotic (identical) twins originate from the same egg/sperm combination, so they do have identical DNA. The zygote is fertilised by a single sperm, but then divides into two.

So they have 1/2 a soul then. Angel

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16-02-2017, 09:54 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
I am pro choice but I certainly have understanding for the rational side of the argument for pro-life. Just to be clear, I am the result of a pro-life decision having been adopted.

Personally, I'd prefer to move the discussion to prevention e.g. birth control. Less emotion and only the wackos who consider a sperm / egg (which cannot replicate themselves if I remember by biology correctly) as life.

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored- Aldous Huxley
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16-02-2017, 11:43 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 01:06 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  When does a human become a human? Is this even a question that can be answered with science?

Some time in the last few hundred thousand years depending on how taxanomically strict you want to be. The line will be somewhat blurred by the gradational nature of evolution upon which we have imposed our pigeonhole mentality. It is true of both the best of biology and the worst of theology that only humans beget humans. One of the few points upon which both sides agree. There is no point in the human reproductive cycle at which the human(s) in question become non-humans.

From this viewpoint, the average testicle commits genocide on a daily basis by virtue of not sending every sperm to fertilize an egg. God clearly hates us as He Created us to be self-replicating human-murdering machines. In his own image.

A more meaningful line of inquiry is when a biological human becomes a person. This is a great deal murkier and should be left to cognitive neuroscientists. Anybody who has dealt with newborns will likely suspect that it happens at some point after birth.

As RocketSurgeon has pointed out, it is immaterial to the debate on abortion. It is a shameless dodge by the pro-lifers away from the actual point entirely because this is not a debate but rather an expression of their unsubstantiated religious beliefs.

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