When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
16-02-2017, 03:13 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 01:06 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  When does a human become a human? Is this even a question that can be answered with science?

I run into the argument that pro-lifers make frequently that because something is 1. human and 2. alive, that it has rights/you can't "murder" it. But isn't sperm both human and alive?
I agree that a fertilised egg is human and is alive.

A sperm is a human sperm and can be dead or alive but only contains 1/2 the DNA required to make up a unique human.


My contention is on <it has rights/you can't "murder" it>.
Who is it that determines what rights something or someone has? What is this determination based on?
If it is the government that determines these rights then does this determination support the purpose of government or does it fall outside that purpose?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-02-2017, 03:22 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 01:06 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  Then there's the issue of a fetus having its own DNA, which seems a rather arbitrary reason not to abort.
Yes, it is an arbitrary reason to impose forcible control onto pregnant women.

(10-02-2017 01:06 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  I was reading that each sperm has different DNA, that's why you don't look identical to your siblings.
Do you realise that half the DNA comes from the egg.
Lookup Meosis and Fertilisation.


(10-02-2017 01:06 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  Perhaps it is irrelevant to determining whether abortion should be legal, but it would be good to understand better how unique each sperm is. Can anyone shed light on this?
Each sperm is unique. It contains half the males chromosones, but a different set from each other sperm.

(10-02-2017 01:06 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  There there is the issue of fetuses feeling pain, which some say starts around 20 weeks. I don't think feeling pain is a good argument against abortion because if the goal is to avoid causing pain to a human, they should outlaw childbirth haha.
Yes, I'm with you on this. Perhaps pregnancy and childbirth are more painful than abortion. IDK. But it certainly isn't a valid reason to force a woman to go through with a pregnancy. Governments mandate isn't to maximise happiness and minimise suffering. Otherwise they might be dishing out free drugs to all.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-02-2017, 03:31 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 07:47 PM)Foxen Wrote:  Actually, the argument is not "when is one considered a human" but rather "when is one considered a person".

The argument hinges on personhood, not humanity. There is no doubt that a fetus is a potential human, but is it a person?

(10-02-2017 08:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Person-hood is a legal concept. It is granted by law.


Yes, and it is hence a circular argument to suggest that it ought to be protected BECAUSE it is a person.

You have given it the "person" label in the first place BECAUSE you have decided that you want to give it legal protection.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-02-2017, 03:41 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 10:37 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It's also why we talk about the "age of viability" (the age at which the fetus has a reasonable chance of being kept alive without the mother's body) being a point at which some rights begin to attach to the fetus... and even that is debatable. It's equally important to note that even then, it can still be overridden by doctors in case of medical emergency or emergent threat to the life/health of the mother.
.
I think the age of viability is an important point because you must consider that at that age, even once the fetus/baby has been removed from the mother, further action (or medical non action) must be taken to kill it.

Perhaps the manufacture of a medical hammer to knock the prem-baby on the head with. Some people would find this action to be quite repugnant. It would be difficult to legally force a doctor to carry out this procedure against his beliefs/morals etc.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-02-2017, 09:54 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 01:06 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  When does a human become a human? Is this even a question that can be answered with science?

Yes it can be answered by science. A human is a human from the moment it is conceived. But the issue isn't whether it's a human. It's whether it's moral to kill a human at that stage of growth. I would say it is moral. The cognitive capacity of the human as a fetus is comparable to an ant's cognitive capacity. It comes nowhere close to even a human child's cognitive capabilities.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-02-2017, 01:37 AM (This post was last modified: 17-02-2017 01:42 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Entirely arbitrary. These are our own very vague terms in the first place. It is what it is. It's all "human DNA", so from that point of view it can't be anything else.

An unborn child fulfills all the criteria for being a parasite. But it isn't allowed to be classed as one medically, presumably because it would sound bad. Just like religious beliefs can fulfil all the criteria for being a delusion, but aren't allowed to be medically classified as one either.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-02-2017, 02:41 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(16-02-2017 09:54 PM)Naielis Wrote:  But the issue isn't whether it's a human. It's whether it's moral to kill a human at that stage of growth.
I don't think the issue is that of morality. I think it is more one of whether forcing women to continue with their pregnancies is in the best interest of the governed society and whether that justifies using force and threat of prison or criminal record against the woman and medical professionals that assist.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-02-2017, 11:01 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(16-02-2017 09:54 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Yes it can be answered by science. A human is a human from the moment it is conceived. [...]

Citation please.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes SYZ's post
17-02-2017, 08:28 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(16-02-2017 03:41 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(10-02-2017 10:37 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It's also why we talk about the "age of viability" (the age at which the fetus has a reasonable chance of being kept alive without the mother's body) being a point at which some rights begin to attach to the fetus... and even that is debatable. It's equally important to note that even then, it can still be overridden by doctors in case of medical emergency or emergent threat to the life/health of the mother.
.
I think the age of viability is an important point because you must consider that at that age, even once the fetus/baby has been removed from the mother, further action (or medical non action) must be taken to kill it.

Perhaps the manufacture of a medical hammer to knock the prem-baby on the head with. Some people would find this action to be quite repugnant. It would be difficult to legally force a doctor to carry out this procedure against his beliefs/morals etc.

What The Fuck are you talking about?!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-02-2017, 08:47 PM (This post was last modified: 17-02-2017 09:38 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(16-02-2017 09:54 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(10-02-2017 01:06 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  When does a human become a human? Is this even a question that can be answered with science?

Yes it can be answered by science. A human is a human from the moment it is conceived. But the issue isn't whether it's a human. It's whether it's moral to kill a human at that stage of growth. I would say it is moral. The cognitive capacity of the human as a fetus is comparable to an ant's cognitive capacity. It comes nowhere close to even a human child's cognitive capabilities.

Absolutely not. It cannot be answered by science.
Too bad for you, there is no "moment of conception", and the chairpersons of the academic OBGYN Departments around the world do not agree on the matter.
(More evidence you know absolutely nothing about science).
YOU do not know more than the worlds OBGYN physicians.
http://www.figo.org/news/obstetrician-gy...ts-0012855

Cells from your arm are "human life". Human life began billions of years ago.


Is it "human" when :
a. sperm approaches egg ?
-- the first sperm to enter the oocyte is not the sperm that actually donates DNA to the first replication --
b. 1st electron of sperm cell enters electron cloud of egg cell ?
c. sperm contacts egg wall ?
d. sperm 1/2 way into egg ?
e. sperm entirely in egg ?
f. DNA of sperm contacts DNA of egg ?
g. DNA replication begins ?
h. DNA replication 0.567534521897 % complete ?
i. 1st DNA replication complete, (poof..soul enters) ?
j. 2nd DNA completes ?
k. zygote forms ?
l. zygote multiplies ?
m. zygote begins to travel ?
l. zygote approaches endometrial wall ?
m. zygote touches endometrial wall ?
n. zygote implants in endometrial wall ?

There is no "moment" of anything. It's all a complex, on-going process with absolutely no absolute firm or identifiable markers or absolute landmarks.

Human sperm cell : human life, alive, no brain, no neural tube, potential human person
Human oocyte (egg cell) : human life, alive, no brain, no neural tube, potential human person
Human zygote : human life, alive, no brain, no neural tube, potential human person
Human skin cell : human life, alive, no brain, no neural tube, potential human person, (when stem cell technology advances)
Early human embryo : human life, alive, no brain, no neural tube, potential human person
Anencephalic fetus : human life, alive, no brain, no potential as a human person, (occasionally potential to survive outside womb for a while).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Bucky Ball's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: