When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
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18-02-2017, 07:23 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(18-02-2017 12:32 AM)Naielis Wrote:  [...]
Yes it can be answered by science. A human is a human from the moment it is conceived.

Can you please respond to my request...

Citation required.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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18-02-2017, 07:31 AM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2017 08:01 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(18-02-2017 12:32 AM)Naielis Wrote:  Is this synonymous with when the offspring becomes human?

Don't go all *Tomasia* on us. WTF ELSE would it mean ? YOU said it was.
Obviously you understood NOTHING in the article.

Quote:It becomes a human after gametogenesis and fertilization.

Obviously you understood NOTHING that was written. You cannot say what the "moment of conception" actually is. Why would it be a "moment" ?
Why would a (fake) philosopher be SO careless with the way he uses words, and not even try to define his terms ?
There IS NO "point" that can be identified when "gametogenesis" and "fertililzation" happens, (exactly) and YOU cannot say EXACTLY when that point is, scientifically.
Try harder.
You were given a number of options, and could pick none of them. You could not even come close to picking the "moment of conception", or even discussing the options, or saying what you mean.
You *declared* your pronouncement, and provided not even one reason why it should be even considered, and gave no criteria or reasons why it should be considered.
The article demonstrated the world's authorities on the matter cannot agree when "fertilization" happens, (among other things).
Gametogenesis and fertilization are PROCESSES, (which you obviously know nothing about). They are not "momentary" or exactly defined by science, as you claimed.

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18-02-2017, 07:34 AM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2017 07:43 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(18-02-2017 12:15 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If the reason why they abort is because they can't successfully care for it, then they are wanting it dead. They don't want to care for it and they don't want to give it up for abortion. It is not merely a case of wanting it out of their body, they don't want it to exist any longer a.k.a. they want it dead.

You cannot know that.
1. It's "give it up for ADOPTION", not abortion.
2. You are making an assumption you have no way to support.
3. Clearly you know NOTHING of the conflicted highly emotional decisions women have to make in this situation.

Quote:In USA your health system is quite different to elsewhere.
In NZ where hospital treatment is free there are certain treatments that govt cover and certain ones where they don't. If we consider Keytruda (cancer treatment) it costs about $100,000 per year. It only works (whatever is meant by "works") on about 10% of people, 30% of people have some kind of positive outcome (reduced tumor size or halting of progression for a period of time). So the cost of Keytruda considering it works in few cases and most of those that it works, it might add perhaps 1-3 years on to the life of someone.
If we consider the cost if incubators and steroids and such for a prem baby, that perhaps gives 80 years of life to a person, so perhaps much more value for money than cancer treatment. Now I haven't thoroughly researched this, but there may be a strong case for supporting medical treatment of premature babies.

Irrelevant. They cannot survive "on their own" outside the womb HERE or there, until very late in the pregnancy. Your "hammer" was an ignorant attempt at the fallacy of the false analogy. Without fully developed lungs, a fetus cannot survive outside the womb without technological support. No hammer is needed.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-02-2017, 02:38 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(18-02-2017 07:34 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(18-02-2017 12:15 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If the reason why they abort is because they can't successfully care for it, then they are wanting it dead. They don't want to care for it and they don't want to give it up for abortion. It is not merely a case of wanting it out of their body, they don't want it to exist any longer a.k.a. they want it dead.

You cannot know that.
1. It's "give it up for ADOPTION", not abortion.
2. You are making an assumption you have no way to support.
3. Clearly you know NOTHING of the conflicted highly emotional decisions women have to make in this situation.
1. Yes, I meant Adoption.

2. I am using my own experience + my own perception here. I don't claim to be authoritative on this matter.

3. When I was dating the girl that later became my wife, we were having sexual relations (strangely enough). We did have a few mishaps. Once we used the morning after pill, other times we waited anxiously and just hoped she wasn't pregnant. There were times where her Period seemed overdue. During these times we discussed as a collective (not just her decision) on what we would do if she were to be pregnant. Neither of us being religious or pro-lifers, we were both very open to the possibility of abortion. Of course abortion is not something that we would have liked, hence we used protection, but if that didn't work we were open to abortion. The time we did use the morning after pill the doctor was a tad condescending, so I guess we were a little hesitant to rush to the doctors for Morning after pill again.
With regards to the abortion consideration we had. We were young, weren't engaged, were just starting our careers and didn't want a child together (yet). It would have been a decision purely out of convenience, we recognised that the decision would be to kill the embryo or fetus and we accepted that we would rather kill it than go to term, we didn't want to have and look after a baby at that stage in our lives and we didn't want to take it to term and adopt it out. Abortion would have been the choice for us had she turned out to be pregnant. We wouldn't have wanted the embryo or fetus to continue living and develop into a baby. But thankfully this was all hypothetical, because she never got pregnant without us wanting to get pregnant, we were lucky.

Later on, when we were trying, she got pregnant and because we thought there might be a family history of spina bifida we made sure to check for that in the 12 week and 20 week scans. If the fetus had spina bifida we would have aborted. Again this is pure convenience, we had the money and means to look after a spina bifida child, but we didn't want to. We would have rather aborted (killed it) and tried again. This may seem cold to you, but it is our lives and our choices, I have no problems with abortion. I don't feel I need to justify my choices for using it to anyone. But I do regard it as rather disonant to dehumanise the fetus in order to justify abortion. I don't need to do that. It is what it is, I am aware of what it is, but I'd still be keen on using it in the situations I have spoke of above. I have no problems with using it as a matter of convenience rather than necessity.

But perhaps you could assert that I know NOTHING being a man and all.
I don't insist on knowing everything, and my partner/wife has never had an actual abortion, so I haven't experienced what people who have gone through an abortion have experienced.

(18-02-2017 07:34 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Irrelevant. They cannot survive "on their own" outside the womb HERE or there, until very late in the pregnancy. Your "hammer" was an ignorant attempt at the fallacy of the false analogy. Without fully developed lungs, a fetus cannot survive outside the womb without technological support. No hammer is needed.
My hammer analogy is a valid reason for me to be weary of supporting abortion after the point of viability. I'm not sure how legally we could force a doctor to kill a baby once it is outside the mother's body. Also I am not sure about forcing a doctor to not use equipment that is in the hospital that could be used to keep it alive. If the baby is suffocating, do they just let it suffocate to death? I would be more in support of a more humane method to terminate its life rather than let it suffocate.
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18-02-2017, 05:06 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(18-02-2017 04:35 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Your personal support is all-well-and-good, except for the fact that you are copying the rhetoric that the ignorant use in their emotional pleas in favor of prioritizing the life of the fetus over the bodily integrity (you could say "sanctity of person") of the mother who doesn't wish to be a breeder right-at-that-moment.
What I am doing is using my own understanding and dialogue on this topic. I have listened to both sides, the pro lifers and the pro choicers. I have my own position, I am firmly pro choice but I don't believe that serves my purpose to ignore the arguments from the otherside. Where their dialogue sounds better than that of pro choicers, I adopt their dialogue, where the pro choicers dialogue sounds better then I adopt theirs. My position is a mixture of both.

I absolutely disagree with the approach of dehanising the embryo or fetus. I disagree with calling it a clump of cells, a parasite, not human, a potential person. These words and phrases to me come across as dishonest, I refuse to go down that track.

I can see why some pro-lifers want to force pregnant women considering abortion to view ultrascans or to see pictures of fetus's. It makes no sense to dehumanize these and if you take that tack I think you are doing these women a huge disservice and sending the pro-lifers down a rabbit hole that has nothing to do with the reason why you support abortion.

I also absolutely disagree with the approach of sanctity of human life. This is why I am happy to call an embryo and a fetus a living human but also happy to support abortion.

I think we should look at the real issues head on and debate from that stand point rather than dance around whether it is human or a person whether it is alive, or whether the intent of abortion is to kill it or to give the mother back her own body.

So in that light, I am very happy to concede that it is human, that it is alive, that abortion does purosefully kill it, that many times people choose abortion out of convenience rather than to simply deal with a life threatening situation.

I don't think we need to appeal to the poverty of the mother, the difficulties of supporting the baby, be it a disabled one or in a state of poverty.

My argument doesn't need the mother to justify her decision.

My argument is purely that the decision is the mother's for whatever reason she chooses and it is absolutely not the government's decision. I do not support government forcibly controlling the woman and her body.

It is not my place to control her, nor is it my place to label her a killer or a murderer.


(18-02-2017 04:35 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Because the way you are phrasing it is as though you think people are unaware that the act of abortion terminates a developing life, at whatever stage it occurs.
No, Im just being honest about the language that I use. I am acurately describing the situation. I feel no need to dance.

(18-02-2017 04:35 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  And again, it mimics the language and emotional pleas of the Religious Right.
I'm not making any emotional pleas. I don't automatically reject any arguments or phrases that the pro-lifers use.

(18-02-2017 04:35 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  We don't say "kill the fetus" any more than necessary, out of respect for those who have had to make this choice.
I don't skirt around this out of respect for the life growing inside the womb. I'm certainly not going up to pregnant women and flouting that their fetus is alive and that they are going to kill it.
I'm discussing this matter, hypothetically, in an online forum.


(18-02-2017 04:35 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  We do it so we do not run the risk of inflaming raw emotion in people who have had to walk in shoes I would never even wish to try on, not out of some cover-up to "hide the truth". And it's fucking offensive that you (like they) pretend that all you're doing is "telling the truth". Fuck right off with that!
I do find it annoying if we try to dehumanise it, and I think we are setting up the women for moments of shock if we do so. Inevitably they will come across the pro-lifer's arguments and I don't want them to feel that we (the pro-choicers) have been giving them half truths.
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18-02-2017, 06:19 PM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2017 06:24 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Projecting personal anecdotal experiences onto others, assuming their experience or motives are similar to one's own, is simply arrogant nonsense.
People who actually know almost nothing about abortion procedures and how they are done are not competent to speak to the issue.

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18-02-2017, 06:29 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(18-02-2017 06:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Projecting personal anecdotal experiences onto others, assuming their experience or motives are similar to one's own, is simply arrogant nonsense.
People who actually know almost nothing about abortion procedures and how they are done are not competent to speak to the issue.
I certainly wouldn't put my hand up to present at an acedemic conference on the topic. But I am happy to put my thoughts, open for discussion by other (probably non qualified) people on an atheist forum. It's called general chit chat. Don't need to be qualified for that.
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19-02-2017, 02:36 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Whether abortion is moral or not (which is of course a matter of opinion), isn't the same thing as whether it should be legal or not.

I know most people know this, but I thought it was worth mentioning. I've known some people who think laws dictate morals.

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19-02-2017, 03:15 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(18-02-2017 04:20 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Maybe we could instead say that they are choosing a course of action that they know will lead to the death of the fetus. They are not simply desiring the death for the sake of it. The factors involved in making such a decision will be many and varied.
To clarify my opinion on this.
They don't get pregnant just so that they can kill a fetus, that would be stupid.
But once they are pregnant, for whatever reason, they don't want the fetus to develop into a baby. They don't want to look after the baby, they don't want to adopt it out. They just want to terminate the pregnancy, and that means they want to stop the fetus continuing to live and continuing to develop. Which in a cold way means they want the fetus to die rather than to continue living.

And I emphasis here that there are reasons, the want isn't arbitrary, but for whatever the reason, they want the pregnancy terminated.
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19-02-2017, 04:42 AM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2017 04:48 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
"In a cold way", yes. But they are not being cold in general, and simplifying the whole decision down to "they want it dead" achieves nothing except adding spin. You agree it's more complex, so such a sound byte is unnecessary and misleading. Everyone knows what the facts about abortion are.

For example, if I told you I want my dog dead, you'd probably conclude I'm horrible. But if I said I'm taking it to be put to sleep because it's extremely ill and suffering, you would probably consider me very differently.

In both cases, the death is an unfortunate side effect of what is deemed the best decision. It's not about wanting anything dead. That's a far too loaded word here.

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