When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
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19-02-2017, 05:46 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(19-02-2017 04:42 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  [...]Everyone knows what the facts about abortion are.[...]

No, not everyone. People thinking that abortion is "killing the unborn children" probably know shit about it. Religiously motivated opponents I suppose don't bother with facts. People may be not aware that abortion is safer than childbirth.

Some don't know the facts and it is why they oppose it, some don't care about them cause they're authoritarian types, for others sex is sin and woman is one who should be "responsible" or pay the price of "slutiness".

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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19-02-2017, 06:22 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Fair point. I meant that everyone knows that whatever is in there isn't coming out alive.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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19-02-2017, 06:26 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(19-02-2017 06:22 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Fair point. I meant that everyone knows that whatever is in there isn't coming out alive.

That may be one small fact that everyone know. It's hardly a knowledge permitting one to make some definitive statements though.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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19-02-2017, 07:20 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
Stevil made the comment, earlier on, to Bucky Ball, that "clearly you know NOTHING of the conflicted highly emotional decisions women have to make in this situation".

Then Stevil responded, in part thusly...

When I was dating the girl that later became my wife, we were having sexual relations (strangely enough). We did have a few mishaps. Once we used the morning after pill, other times we waited anxiously and just hoped she wasn't pregnant. There were times where her period seemed overdue. During these times we discussed as a collective (not just her decision) on what we would do IF she were to be pregnant. Neither of us being religious or pro-lifers, we were both very open to the possibility of abortion. Of course abortion is not something that we would have liked, hence we used protection, but IF that didn't work we were open to abortion. The time we did use the morning after pill [...]

Abortion would have been the choice for us had she turned out to be pregnant. [...]

[my emphases]

The fact that not once did you or your partner have to face the reality of an actual abortion means that you're really unable to comment from any practical standpoint. Hypothesising about an abortion is a totally different animal from having to decide on following through with one or not.

And the use of the morning after pill is in effect a cop-out (in reality) because it's only taken on the possibility the woman may have been impregnated. Ultimately, you don't know one way or the other, and probably never will—so it relieves any feelings of moral culpability or self reproach etc.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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19-02-2017, 09:44 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(10-02-2017 01:06 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  When does a human become a human? Is this even a question that can be answered with science?

Only when an infant reaches the minimum age of 3 months, should they be classified as humans, prior to that they're just lumps of cells, no more sentient than chickens.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-02-2017, 12:56 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(19-02-2017 04:42 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  "In a cold way", yes. But they are not being cold in general, and simplifying the whole decision down to "they want it dead" achieves nothing except adding spin. You agree it's more complex, so such a sound byte is unnecessary and misleading. Everyone knows what the facts about abortion are.

For example, if I told you I want my dog dead, you'd probably conclude I'm horrible. But if I said I'm taking it to be put to sleep because it's extremely ill and suffering, you would probably consider me very differently.

In both cases, the death is an unfortunate side effect of what is deemed the best decision. It's not about wanting anything dead. That's a far too loaded word here.
I wasn't trying to load anything up. Just calling a spade a spade. If someone reacts to the phrase "want it dead"'then one would hope, that after they understand that I'm not a disguised pro-lifer that I'm not actually trying to incite an emotional response.
If you get used to the idea that abortion = death of the embryo or fetus then if a pro-lifer confronts you and says that you are killing your unborn, killing your fetus etc. You can confidently and unemotionally respond "Yes, that's what I'm doing". You don't need to resort to the nonsense of, but it's not alive, or it's not a person or it's just a clump of cells.
I think if you acknowledge then hopefully the pro-lifer will stop with the nonsense of bring it up all the time, stop with the nonsense of wanting to show you what a fetus looks like.
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19-02-2017, 01:35 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(19-02-2017 07:20 AM)SYZ Wrote:  The fact that not once did you or your partner have to face the reality of an actual abortion means that you're really unable to comment from any practical standpoint. Hypothesising about an abortion is a totally different animal from having to decide on following through with one or not.

And the use of the morning after pill is in effect a cop-out (in reality) because it's only taken on the possibility the woman may have been impregnated. Ultimately, you don't know one way or the other, and probably never will—so it relieves any feelings of moral culpability or self reproach etc.
I had put some serious thought into it. under a non zero level of stress. Thinking that it could be a very real situation for me and my girlfriend/wife. I'd imagine this situation would be a very common situation for most people having sexual relations.

I don't see it as immoral to kill a fetus or embryo. I'm quite firmly of the opinion that I could kill it and try again if it were defective or if the timing wasn't right for me, and you go through those thoughts when you inspect the ultrasound scans during 12 week and 20 week of pregnancy. It's a real situation although not as real as actually going through an abortion. I have never claimed that I know what it is like to have an abortion.

It is nuts though to claim that a man or a person not having experienced an abortion is not allowed to have and offer their opinions on the abortion debate.

Bucky's issue with my comments was with regards to me claiming that most people who have an abortion want the fetus dead. I think it is trivially true that most people having an abortion want the fetus dead. There are some cases where they have an abortion to save the mother e.g. ectopic pregnancy. But I doubt that accounts for most abortions.

I haven't done studies on this, so it is of course my own unqualified opinion, so I could be wrong (I'm sure Bucky will be lining up to shoot me, should I be wrong). I've been wrong many times before, and I keep telling my young girls not to be afraid of trying, making mistakes is a part of life.

Anyway, in my own thoughts, even if freezing an embryo or fetus was feasible and free of charge, I'd probably only do it with an unwanted pregnancy if I was afraid we might have problems in the future when it comes to conceiving. Even if we had an embryo frozen, I think we would first try conceiving naturally rather than go to the bother of using the frozen embryo. I have little to no empathy for the plight of the embryo, at least hypothetically speaking. Even with regards to a 20 week fetus. I have little attachment to it although I do recognise it as unique and special. I do understand though that there are some people that have great attachment to their fetus by 20 weeks. Some people are devastated be miscarriage. Me and the wife endured two miscarriages, but we took it in our stride a friend of ours had a miscarage and was deeply upset.

I very much doubt I'd have any empathy turmoil with regards to abortion. My only concern would be with my wife/girlfriend having to go through the procedure.
But anyway, I think it should be legal, it should be the choice of the individual rather than the choice of government. But I can see issues with allowing abortion once the fetus is at a viable age.
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19-02-2017, 01:54 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(19-02-2017 09:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Only when an infant reaches the minimum age of 3 months, should they be classified as humans, prior to that they're just lumps of cells, no more sentient than chickens.
I don't know if you actually think that or are just being provocative, but it is true that if there isn't an arbitrary point before birth when a fetus becomes a person and acquires the rights of a person, there is not one right at or sometime after birth, either. Indeed, even pro-life people do not afford children the full rights of an adult until the age of majority, so they recognize that children's personal rights do not have primacy over everything at all times.

I have always seen children as having gradually increasing personal responsibility and privileges and rights. While society as a practical matter arbitrarily declares a child an adult generally at age 18, in reality, a switch isn't thrown on that day. It is a process, not an event. The same applies to prenatal development. We have to for practical purposes say that a fetus becomes a person at birth, but that is just a milestone in a process that is kicked off at conception.

I personally think it makes the most sense for the rights we ascribe to personhood to accrue at birth. I think it's silly to assign them before that, and dangerous to assign it after.

I think it makes perfect sense for decisions about abortion to rest with the person whose body is carrying the unborn child, and for that person's rights to trump the rights of the fetus.

This would not even be a discussion in a world in which people minded their own business and did not try to impose their personal beliefs on others, and did not feel free to judge or disrespect others for how they thread the needle for themselves.
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19-02-2017, 02:10 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(19-02-2017 09:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-02-2017 01:06 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  When does a human become a human? Is this even a question that can be answered with science?

Only when an infant reaches the minimum age of 3 months, should they be classified as humans, prior to that they're just lumps of cells, no more sentient than chickens.

That is why we eat them at that age.

Frankie de la Cunto
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19-02-2017, 03:02 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(19-02-2017 09:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-02-2017 01:06 PM)freerangehuman Wrote:  When does a human become a human? Is this even a question that can be answered with science?

Only when an infant reaches the minimum age of 3 months, should they be classified as humans, prior to that they're just lumps of cells, no more sentient than chickens.

Our Jewish neighbors say a fetus becomes viable when they are accepted to Medical School, Dental School (sort of 1/2 human), Law school, or pass their CPA exam.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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