When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
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20-02-2017, 07:42 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(20-02-2017 07:38 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What's it like down your widdle wabbit hole, you wascally Tomato ?
I know you never had to learn any science at fake-fast-university, but humans have brains and neural tubes. (That's a widdle hint.)

SO at about 6 weeks?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-02-2017, 07:46 PM (This post was last modified: 20-02-2017 07:55 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(20-02-2017 09:04 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-02-2017 01:54 PM)mordant Wrote:  I think it's silly to assign them before that, and dangerous to assign it after.

I don't see the danger in it all. You should have the right to an after birth abortion at least up to the age of one. We should be able to euthanize unwanted 1 month old infant, rather than let it be a drain on state resources, as we do cats and dogs, who are far more sentient than 1 months olds at that point.

The only difference in being able to abort it at 1 month, or a month prior to exiting the womb, is you don't have to look that lump of cells in the eyes.

No one has abortions at 8 months you ignorant fool, except in life-threatening circumstances for the mother. And you have the balls to lecture us about straw-men. LOL

Why are you here asking us these things ? We use deluded atheist logic.
Oh wait, the idiot who can't write a sentence in English is gonna save us. Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-02-2017, 08:00 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(20-02-2017 07:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-02-2017 07:33 PM)Rik Wrote:  A fetus at month 8 is likely viable and would qualify as a human. A fetus at 8 weeks is not and would not.

When would you say a fetus qualifies as a human 3 months? 4 months?

How about when it has a brain and nervous system?
Before that it is just cells - it can't feel pain or anything else, it doesn't think, it is not a human being.
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20-02-2017, 08:47 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
If God didn't want abortions, (a) there would be no abortions, and (b) no one would get pregnant unless they wanted to be and would definitely continue to want to deliver the baby.

Otherwise, I guess he wants abortions. Or he can't stop them.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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20-02-2017, 09:21 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
I've pretty much stayed out of this so far because:
  1. It's been discussed to death
  2. Nobody else, AFAIK, has ever changed someone else's mind on this, and
  3. The precedent has already been set and is unlikely to change

That said, here's my $0.02:

Once the egg has been fertilized, it's human; call it a human zygote or blastocyst or embryo or foetus, but it's human regardless (and, interestingly, without gender for the first few weeks).

But, legally, the zygote/blastocyst/embryo/fetus is not a person with legal standing. The legal implications depend upon your jurisdiction. In Canada, 20 weeks seems to be the standard, though there are no legal restrictions on abortions in Canada.

All that said, it is unconscionable that a government agency should be involved in the most difficult, personal and heart-wrenching decisions made between a woman (or couple) and physician.
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20-02-2017, 10:01 PM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(20-02-2017 08:47 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  If God didn't want abortions, (a) there would be no abortions, and (b) no one would get pregnant unless they wanted to be and would definitely continue to want to deliver the baby.

Otherwise, I guess he wants abortions. Or he can't stop them.

More than 50 % of human conceptions spontaneously abort.
If the gods didn't want abortions, they would have done a better job designing the human reproductive system.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-02-2017, 05:28 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
I don't know why this point keeps sailing over people's heads.

The difference between the 8- and 10-month point, referenced above, is that the born child is no longer attached to and endangering the life of the mother.

The right to bodily integrity means that, as in the example I keep giving, even if a fully-developed adult was attached to my body for its survival and endangering my life in order to sustain the other life, I would always have the option to sever that attachment, resulting in the death of the person attached to me. Same if I was attached to someone else.

And that's for a full-grown adult citizen!

That said, and has been pointed out, it's a strawman to talk about an 8-month gestated fetus being aborted because those are usually induced to delivery, and only aborted if there is a severe emergency that seriously risks the life of the mother (a multi-decimal-place tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of cases). Please read the thread, and the link given to the explanation by the OB/GYN about how and when abortions are performed in the late term.

And stop building strawmen to try to make some point about how you think we should be taking rights from women!

Again, as with the example of the attached-to-live people I gave, above, it would not matter if it was a fetus or a grown adult, when it comes to bodily integrity in the face of a threat to one's own health and safety. This whole argument about whether a fetus is a human, or a person, is completely irrelevant.

The government may not compel you to endanger yourself on behalf of anyone else. Period. If your continued existence is based on a connection to another person that endangers that other person, then they may decide at any point to sever that connection and end your life.

Your right to personal bodily integrity overrides the "right to life" of someone else, in that sort of situation. The End. That's all there is to it.

Why we think fetuses should have a right that adults do not have is *baffling* to me.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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21-02-2017, 06:40 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(20-02-2017 09:21 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  All that said, it is unconscionable that a government agency should be involved in the most difficult, personal and heart-wrenching decisions made between a woman (or couple) and physician.

Do you think the government shouldn't be involved at any stage in the pregnancy, such as restricting late term abortions, for only extreme circumstances?

Do you think a woman should have a right to opt for an abortion at any time in the pregnancy, for whatever reasons, and not just extreme circumstances?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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21-02-2017, 06:45 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(21-02-2017 05:28 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Why we think fetuses should have a right that adults do not have is *baffling* to me.

I can help you with that. People who want to give unborn humans the right to life, do it for the same reason you want to give 1-second-old newborns the right to life.

That said, I'm prochoice, and I don't even really have a problem with infanticide, but I'm not *baffled* at why some people are prolife.
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21-02-2017, 06:54 AM
RE: When does a human become a human? (Abortion)
(21-02-2017 06:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Do you think the government shouldn't be involved at any stage in the pregnancy, such as restricting late term abortions, for only extreme circumstances?
I do not believe a government agency or bureaucrat has any business being involved in any of this, at any level, for any reason.

(21-02-2017 06:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Do you think a woman should have a right to opt for an abortion at any time in the pregnancy, for whatever reasons, and not just extreme circumstances?
Yes, a woman should have that right. I, personally, may find it something more than distasteful but the fact is that it's not my decision to make, nor is it yours or any government agency's.
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