When is it OK for a man to hit a woman?
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13-09-2014, 04:09 PM
RE: When is it OK for a man to hit a woman?
If the woman hits first... Are women our supreme robotic lords and masters incapable of self-control, who must be suffered and obeyed at all costs?

REFERENCES EXAMINING ASSAULTS BY WOMEN ON THEIR SPOUSES OR MALE PARTNERS: AN ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY
Martin S. Fiebert Department of Psychology California State University, Long Beach
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm



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13-09-2014, 05:14 PM
RE: When is it OK for a man to hit a woman?
(13-09-2014 04:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  I'm not staking a position, I am making an observation.

I know -- and I am saying that the typical response is irrational.

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13-09-2014, 05:44 PM
RE: When is it OK for a man to hit a woman?
Did the speaker on that video even WATCH the assault he's referencing? He focuses on the NFL sportscaster as his argument for awareness against battered men. The NFL sportscaster is referencing Ray Rice - I'd hardly call him a battered man. Did the woman get physical? Yes. But he knocks her unconscious and leaves her body in the door of the elevator like it's no big deal. THATS a BIG fucking deal. Ray Rice crossed the line, there is nothing hypocritical about about calling him out on it.

The speaker is leaving out a very important aspect of domestic violence - the cycle of abuse. He downplays the role of abuse against women. His argument is hardly compelling. Hell, the statistics he used with women getting physical in DV could have included the Ray Rice event. So what are the situations in which the women use weapons against men? There was a murder case in my area years ago where a preacher's wife shot and killed her husband. Turns out he beat her, raped her, and humiliated her for years. She got a few years in prison and lost custody of her children. That is an isolated event. A statistic is presented showing women use weapons - now show me the statistics on what were factors leading up to the assaults. It would take a weapon for me to defend myself against an attack by most men, especially one as large as Ray Rice. As far as I'm concerned, the statistics referenced in the video you linked indicates a need for more research as well as more education. Then maybe we can get answers to: How do we stop the violence? What are the most effective methods? Domestic violence is a VERY complex issue.

Let's take Goodwithoutgod for example. Earlier in this thread he shared his very personal experience where he was assaulted. Did he fight back? No. He walked away and then divorced her sorry ass. I'd call that a man of character. He easily could have escalated the situation - I've seen his pics in another thread - he is a BIG man, had he retaliated he easily could have landed nearly any woman in the ICU. The situations where physical retaliation against a woman is acceptable are few and far between. The correct action is to walk away. That's not saying she is your "robotic overlord." That's taking your ego out of the situation and being a responsible adult.

My own husband has said to me the same thing I've said to him - you will only ever get one opportunity to hit me, because if that ever happens I'm immediately filing for divorce. There will be no second time.

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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13-09-2014, 06:01 PM
RE: When is it OK for a man to hit a woman?
(13-09-2014 05:44 PM)Nurse Wrote:  Did the speaker on that video even WATCH the assault he's referencing? He focuses on the NFL sportscaster as his argument for awareness against battered men. The NFL sportscaster is referencing Ray Rice - I'd hardly call him a battered man. Did the woman get physical? Yes. But he knocks her unconscious and leaves her body in the door of the elevator like it's no big deal. THATS a BIG fucking deal. Ray Rice crossed the line, there is nothing hypocritical about about calling him out on it.

The speaker is leaving out a very important aspect of domestic violence - the cycle of abuse. He downplays the role of abuse against women. His argument is hardly compelling. Hell, the statistics he used with women getting physical in DV could have included the Ray Rice event. So what are the situations in which the women use weapons against men? There was a murder case in my area years ago where a preacher's wife shot and killed her husband. Turns out he beat her, raped her, and humiliated her for years. She got a few years in prison and lost custody of her children. That is an isolated event. A statistic is presented showing women use weapons - now show me the statistics on what were factors leading up to the assaults. It would take a weapon for me to defend myself against an attack by most men, especially one as large as Ray Rice. As far as I'm concerned, the statistics referenced in the video you linked indicates a need for more research as well as more education. Then maybe we can get answers to: How do we stop the violence? What are the most effective methods? Domestic violence is a VERY complex issue.

Let's take Goodwithoutgod for example. Earlier in this thread he shared his very personal experience where he was assaulted. Did he fight back? No. He walked away and then divorced her sorry ass. I'd call that a man of character. He easily could have escalated the situation - I've seen his pics in another thread - he is a BIG man, had he retaliated he easily could have landed nearly any woman in the ICU. The situations where physical retaliation against a woman is acceptable are few and far between. The correct action is to walk away. That's not saying she is your "robotic overlord." That's taking your ego out of the situation and being a responsible adult.

My own husband has said to me the same thing I've said to him - you will only ever get one opportunity to hit me, because if that ever happens I'm immediately filing for divorce. There will be no second time.

Luminon is insane. You made a very good rebuttal to everything he said, which means he will now ignore that and create strawmen about how you are oppressing him.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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13-09-2014, 06:38 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2014 07:11 PM by Luminon.)
RE: When is it OK for a man to hit a woman?
(13-09-2014 05:44 PM)Nurse Wrote:  Did the speaker on that video even WATCH the assault he's referencing? He focuses on the NFL sportscaster as his argument for awareness against battered men. The NFL sportscaster is referencing Ray Rice - I'd hardly call him a battered man. Did the woman get physical? Yes. But he knocks her unconscious and leaves her body in the door of the elevator like it's no big deal. THATS a BIG fucking deal. Ray Rice crossed the line, there is nothing hypocritical about about calling him out on it.
I did not call Ray Rice a battered man and I said nothing about (not) crossing the line. You said it, not me. Try to be curious about principles, not outraged about effects. The point of the video is, the system and culture are focused on battered women, but this planet completely ignores battered men. Men are disposable.
This world ignores men to such an extent that a woman assaulted a huge, strong man who professionally plays a very aggressive sport. Where did she get an idea that this is an option? What was going on in her mind? What was her opinion of herself and the man? Frankly, where was her instinct of self-preservation? Did she think that she can smack a big, dumb wild man-beast and her magical vagina powers will protect her?

(13-09-2014 05:44 PM)Nurse Wrote:  The speaker is leaving out a very important aspect of domestic violence - the cycle of abuse. He downplays the role of abuse against women.
No, he doesn't, he simply talks about women elsewhere, with a famous activist Erin Pizzey who pioneered the shelter homes for women. He just mentions the role of women - who do you think raises, disciplines and educates men? And chooses fathers?

(13-09-2014 05:44 PM)Nurse Wrote:  His argument is hardly compelling. Hell, the statistics he used with women getting physical in DV could have included the Ray Rice event.
So what?

(13-09-2014 05:44 PM)Nurse Wrote:  So what are the situations in which the women use weapons against men? There was a murder case in my area years ago where a preacher's wife shot and killed her husband. Turns out he beat her, raped her, and humiliated her for years. She got a few years in prison and lost custody of her children. That is an isolated event.
That is very sad. But please stay relevant and don't escape into effects, the only rational thing is searching for causes. Things have causes, you know.
Who raised that pastor - and HOW? Who chose his father and how? Who raised the woman and how? Who was her female role model of choosing men?

(13-09-2014 05:44 PM)Nurse Wrote:  A statistic is presented showing women use weapons - now show me the statistics on what were factors leading up to the assaults. It would take a weapon for me to defend myself against an attack by most men, especially one as large as Ray Rice. As far as I'm concerned, the statistics referenced in the video you linked indicates a need for more research as well as more education. Then maybe we can get answers to: How do we stop the violence? What are the most effective methods? Domestic violence is a VERY complex issue.
That's what I'm trying to do! No, the issue is not complex. Facts are complex, but facts are like snowflakes. You don't need to compare them all to tell that there is a snow storm.

The most effective method is: PARENTS, DON'T HIT CHILDREN. Yelling is even worse, there's no defense against it and it impacts the brain directly. There's a shit mountain of evidence that this is the very worst thing to do. Does anyone ever think of children as learning and emulating persons? Or are they seen as solid Newtonian snooker balls who are moved by hits and blows changing their course but not their nature? A study has recorded that it is the latter, children are used as punching bags, even in the middle class neighbourhood.
http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/28/wo...your-kids/




Sources: http://www.fdrurl.com/spanking

(13-09-2014 05:44 PM)Nurse Wrote:  Let's take Goodwithoutgod for example. Earlier in this thread he shared his very personal experience where he was assaulted. Did he fight back? No. He walked away and then divorced her sorry ass. I'd call that a man of character. He easily could have escalated the situation - I've seen his pics in another thread - he is a BIG man, had he retaliated he easily could have landed nearly any woman in the ICU. The situations where physical retaliation against a woman is acceptable are few and far between. The correct action is to walk away. That's not saying she is your "robotic overlord." That's taking your ego out of the situation and being a responsible adult.

My own husband has said to me the same thing I've said to him - you will only ever get one opportunity to hit me, because if that ever happens I'm immediately filing for divorce. There will be no second time.
I am sorry for GwG's situation. He did the right thing.
However, solutions lie in addressing the causes, not in the mess of instances and end effects on which you focus so much. That's like trying to treat a lung cancer after 30 years of smoking - a very complicated and uncertain thing. Philosophy and psychology is like nutrition and health maintenance - it will tell you that you shouldn't have smoked for 30 years if you don't want to get cancer. Not everyone gets cancer after 30 years of smoking, but that means nothing. Not smoking is a principle, if you don't want cancer. Not hitting children is a principle too, if you don't want violence in the society. With 80-90% rate of spanking in the developed world, most adults we ever met are not real adults but broken children halted in emotional development.

The question I would ask GwG is, how was he disciplined as a child, what were his parents like and how did they solve conflicts among themselves. National language is not the only thing we learn from our parents, you know? We learn what is the prototype of a woman and how to woo her - it worked for the father to pass his genes forward, so we are driven by evolution to repeat the successful pattern. I would ask GwG, what did he see in the woman to begin with - and if he ever asked her about her family and if she ever asked him about the family. As such things go, I'd expect major similarities. People from healthy, kind families don't find people from abusive families very attractive, I should know. Stopping this generational trend is like stopping a driving train loaded with heavy history. There is no blame, but there is responsibility to critically examine our origins and origins of people we seek to date. There is every duty to critically examine parenting methods and use only the harmless and the best. Children are not objects that react, they're vessels that carry forward whatever they experience from caregivers, primary and secondary. Filled with violence, they will either perpetuate violence (1/3 of victims), seek out violence as the only familiar manageable thing, or be unable to resist violence. Feeling of Stockholm syndrome towards parents is a major factor here, besides one's own shame, or worse, guilt.

Yes, hitting in a relationship is unforgivable. But again, it is focusing on effects and not principles. My parents never had a slightest hint of physical violence towards each other and they took care to never use a dirty word for some idiotic reason, but they took their liberties with spanking, yelling, arguing, neglect and over-controlling at the same time. So again, I do not get convinced by such details as physical contact, that is a necessary but not sufficient condition.
Few, very few victims turn out to be pieces of carbon that don't break under pressure but fuse into a diamond - and they (after years of therapy) become spokes(wo)men for a cause, but all the others are corrupt to some degree and reconciled with violence, which they often perpetuate themselves.
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13-09-2014, 07:12 PM
RE: When is it OK for a man to hit a woman?
Of course, everything boils down to spankings. Rolleyes
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13-09-2014, 07:19 PM
RE: When is it OK for a man to hit a woman?
(13-09-2014 07:12 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  Of course, everything boils down to spankings. Rolleyes

Spanking lead to taxes because [citation required] Q.E.D.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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13-09-2014, 07:23 PM
RE: When is it OK for a man to hit a woman?
(13-09-2014 07:12 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  Of course, everything boils down to spankings. Rolleyes
I didn't say everything. I said violence in the society. Let me guess, you were regularly assaulted as a child (spanked), and you turned out fine.
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13-09-2014, 08:07 PM
RE: When is it OK for a man to hit a woman?
(13-09-2014 05:14 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(13-09-2014 04:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  I'm not staking a position, I am making an observation.

I know -- and I am saying that the typical response is irrational.

Sure, but it is human.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-09-2014, 08:09 PM
RE: When is it OK for a man to hit a woman?
I was mostly referencing the video that I disagreed with - it manipulated statistics to make a point, I find that to be dishonest. And calling women "robotic overlords" was an asinine statement. An inflammatory statement will get an inflammatory response.

I reference "effects" because we live with the effects.

I didn't know the speaker on the video, I was just going off the comments on the video itself.

I think we've already discussed that DV exists in every socioeconomic group so I'm not sure why you're still bringing it up.

"Magical vagina powers?" I see, so it's all her fault that the "big, dumb wild man beast" knocked her unconscious. Dodgy He could have walked away and then dumped her ass. He didn't. He deserves to be in jail. Had he not struck back, he could have had HER arrested.

I don't even know where to start with the rest of your reply. I don't have time tonight, gotta drive out of state to go work. I was spanked (whipped with a belt until 14) as a child and am now a functional, nonviolent adult that has to go to work tomorrow. I've got to go help people that need solutions and/or treatment for their existing problems.

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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