When is it okay to kill?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
20-05-2015, 06:29 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
(20-05-2015 05:42 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 04:46 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  Politics: Why is it that the conservative agenda supports the death penalty yet vehemently opposes a woman's right to an abortion while the liberal agenda passionately opposes the death penalty yet views abortion as a fundamental right?

Yeah, I'm gonna defer to the late great Carlin for this one.




You're right, he says it best!!!

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
20-05-2015, 06:32 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
When they've seen too much.

Drinking Beverage

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like DLJ's post
20-05-2015, 07:08 PM (This post was last modified: 20-05-2015 07:19 PM by Cosmic Discourse.)
RE: When is it okay to kill?
Assisted Suicide: I'm in favor of this service being legally offered in all states (US citizen). As a single adult, it'd be a personal issue. If married (no kids), it deserves at least a discussion with your significant other. In the case of children, I feel there's no one size fits all solution, due to maturity levels, but it should be a family decision. Married adult w/children is a bit too complex for my tastes, but it would probably include elements of the child scenario, with a healthy amount of family discussion/explanation.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-05-2015, 07:43 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
(20-05-2015 07:08 PM)Cosmic Discourse Wrote:  Assisted Suicide: I'm in favor of this service being legally offered in all states (US citizen). As a single adult, it'd be a personal issue. If married (no kids), it deserves at least a discussion with your significant other. In the case of children, I feel there's no one size fits all solution, due to maturity levels, but it should be a family decision. Married adult w/children is a bit too complex for my tastes, but it would probably include elements of the child scenario, with a healthy amount of family discussion/explanation.

Agreed on making this legal. Disagree on making it a requirement that relatives have a say in the decision.

It is your decision and your decision only. If you want to talk it over with your relatives, you will. I assume most people will. But - it must not be a requirement. No one can live in your body for you or take your pain away. No one has the right to force you to suffer.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Dom's post
20-05-2015, 07:49 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
(20-05-2015 07:43 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 07:08 PM)Cosmic Discourse Wrote:  Assisted Suicide: I'm in favor of this service being legally offered in all states (US citizen). As a single adult, it'd be a personal issue. If married (no kids), it deserves at least a discussion with your significant other. In the case of children, I feel there's no one size fits all solution, due to maturity levels, but it should be a family decision. Married adult w/children is a bit too complex for my tastes, but it would probably include elements of the child scenario, with a healthy amount of family discussion/explanation.

Agreed on making this legal. Disagree on making it a requirement that relatives have a say in the decision.

It is your decision and your decision only. If you want to talk it over with your relatives, you will. I assume most people will. But - it must not be a requirement. No one can live in your body for you or take your pain away. No one has the right to force you to suffer.

It is the only truly inalienable right we have.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like GirlyMan's post
20-05-2015, 09:14 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
(20-05-2015 04:46 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  Under what circumstances is it acceptable to take the life of another?

When the perceived benefits of doing so outweigh the repercussions.

(20-05-2015 04:46 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  Why is it that the conservative agenda supports the death penalty yet vehemently opposes a woman's right to an abortion while the liberal agenda passionately opposes the death penalty yet views abortion as a fundamental right?

Groupthink. At some point the mob decided this would be their stance, so those who identify themselves as being part of that mob found a reason to convince themselves that they agree and regurgitate rhetoric to back up that decision.

(20-05-2015 04:46 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  Is it ok to kill one to save the life another? Who determines which life is more valuable?

If the benefits of doing so outweigh the repercussions, yes. Value, in the sense that you probably mean, is determined by which of the involved parties the person doing the killing most empathizes with. There will never be a consensus on this because the nature of empathy, how it is directed, and how much of it one is capable of expressing varies dramatically from individual to individual.

(20-05-2015 04:46 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  Self-defense: What if the other person perceives you as a threat to their life?

If they're a threat to the life of myself or someone I've opted to offer my protection to, and I'm a threat to them, then one of us is fucked. There's no right or wrong here, just a conflict of interests.

(20-05-2015 04:46 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  Abortion: Is it ever ok to abort a healthy fetus five minutes before a healthy woman would have gone into what would be considered a routine labor? Are there certain identifiable thresholds in the development, consciousness or awareness of any living thing the crossing of which renders the killing that living thing acceptable or unacceptable?

It is okay if one perceives it to be okay. That goes back to the idea that we all express empathy in different ways, with both genetics and our upbringing having a strong say in it. I personally feel next to nothing on the subject, so I'll let all the normal people duke it out and decide where to draw the line and, in the meantime, so long as I haven't had a vasectomy (yet), my own personal answer to the issue will be to simply not sleep with someone I'm not willing to raise a kid with should they decide to keep it.

(20-05-2015 04:46 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  Infanticide: If a child is born to a mother with no access to birth control and in extreme poverty, under what circumstances would infanticide be considered merciful or at least an acceptable act of survival of the mother and/or her other children?

See question #1. Cultural evolution has modified society's view on the subject many times throughout history and pre-history. Right now we live in a society defined by surplus, and have adapted to not allow the killing of infants. This makes rational sense. If things get bad enough, this will change out of necessity.

(20-05-2015 04:46 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  Mercy: Are there conditions where a person should take the life of another to alleviate pain and suffering? I.e., if a person is in extreme pain and their death is imminent and unavoidable would giving them a quick death be acceptable, or even preferable?

Assisted Suicide: When should a person be allowed to determine the time and means of their own death?

If that's what they want, and they can find someone to do it if they aren't able to do it themselves, then yes. I'm not into the whole "life is precious" thing. When our desire to die outweighs our desire to live, life is by definition no longer precious. And hindsight bias doesn't change anything. If, for example, I get a terminal case of explosive diarrhea and get someone to kill me, then the next day they find a cure, I'm okay with that. You can't make decisions based on things you didn't know yet, and it's irrational to regret making a decision after the facts change.



(20-05-2015 04:46 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  Capital punishment: Does a group of people who live together have the right to determine when one member of the group offends and is no longer allowed to be a part of the group? If exile is not feasible, is it acceptable to deprive the offender of life or liberty (for the remainder of their life?)

This question is highly context dependent and, as with infanticide, is dependent on surplus. A rich society has both the option of confining and providing for someone who would otherwise be detrimental to that society, not to mention the option of supporting lengthy litigation proceedings to determine whether or not that is the best course of action. A society just barely making ends meet, whether it has all the facts or not, has neither option and must therefore take decisive action immediately.

In any case, I consider exile to be a weak and irrational move in most cases. The last thing you want to do with someone who desires to do harm to you is to hand them over to someone who sympathizes with them enough to take them in, thereby giving them the opportunity to regroup and redouble their efforts if they manage to gain some new leverage against you. If you decide they're a threat, deal with them decisively. If you decide they're not a threat, let them go home.

'Murican Canadian
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes yakherder's post
20-05-2015, 09:30 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
(20-05-2015 05:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 04:46 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  Assisted Suicide: When should a person be allowed to determine the time and means of their own death?

Another easy one. Anytime I want. And I don't need no assistance thankyou very much. ... Well, except for cleanup.

There are people who *do* need assistance. I've had patients beg for me to let them die (complete mindfuck for me to be in a role that sustains their suffering) and they were too physically incapacitated to carry it out themselves. Hell - even if they had scissors to cut their central lines to bleed out or their VAD driveline (a la Grey's Anatomy style) - I have patients too weak to do so. Also, I've seen a *lot* of failed suicide attempts - I'm not talking just the BS "I tried to kill myself - I took five tylenols" for attention - I'm talking self inflicted gun shot wounds. Pro tip - don't put a shotgun under your chin.

I personally don't support the right to suicide in all situations. It's a grey area for me. While I support it for terminal illnesses and severe pain, I don't support it merely for depression - I view it as a tragedy. A friend's father hung himself in a barn at an outdoor wedding when we were in high school - he'd just been through a break up - he needed help, not death. He left two minor children fatherless, guilt stricken and heartbroken. I've pumped plenty of stomachs of restrained patients against their will in the ED - I don't regret it one bit, and I'd do it again.


As far as pushing pain meds to kill off dying patients faster - it's not really that straightforward and that's not actually the intention. Yes, often large doses of drugs such as morphine are ordered in range doses, and it's left to nurse discretion, and most nurses will choose the max dose. The way it's done *legally* and how I practice is by acknowledging while the medicine "may hasten death", it's for the actively dying patient's comfort to aid with both pain and air hunger. I'm not going to stand by and let my patient guppy breathe. The large doses are really more about treating the sensation of suffocation than the pain. I would think the blurred line legally is the speed at which it's administered - 20mg IVP over 15 seconds? Not so legal (about 1-2 mg per minute is standard.)

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Nurse's post
20-05-2015, 11:34 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
When someone want's to die, so assisted suicide - I see nothing wrong with wanting to do with some dignity and ending the pain. I see no nobility in suffering and I do not care for church rambling on this topic.

Also in self defence - after all one must protect himself.

As for mercy killing - only when person in question wan't pain and suffering to end, not when one thinks that life of other should be ended. It could be a problem when said person is incapable of saying their wish, though I suppose some work around can be found as is the case with euthanasy.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-05-2015, 12:02 AM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
(20-05-2015 05:42 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yeah, I'm gonna defer to the late great Carlin for this one.




"Carlinist" is as close as I come to religion.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post
21-05-2015, 12:07 AM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2015 08:30 AM by Cosmic Discourse.)
RE: When is it okay to kill?
(20-05-2015 07:43 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 07:08 PM)Cosmic Discourse Wrote:  Assisted Suicide: I'm in favor of this service being legally offered in all states (US citizen). As a single adult, it'd be a personal issue. If married (no kids), it deserves at least a discussion with your significant other. In the case of children, I feel there's no one size fits all solution, due to maturity levels, but it should be a family decision. Married adult w/children is a bit too complex for my tastes, but it would probably include elements of the child scenario, with a healthy amount of family discussion/explanation.

Agreed on making this legal. Disagree on making it a requirement that relatives have a say in the decision.

It is your decision and your decision only. If you want to talk it over with your relatives, you will. I assume most people will. But - it must not be a requirement. No one can live in your body for you or take your pain away. No one has the right to force you to suffer.
You may be misunderstanding my position a bit. By family decision, I meant the parents/guardians and the child going through the pain. In the scenario of the married person, I would want to have a discussion with my partner. While the decision is the individuals (alone), communication is important in a marriage. I believe we're on the same page there.

In my scenario of the child, I was stating it from the perspective of parents with multiple children. If one of my children were in irrevocable pain, I would choose to sit the family down for a discussion, so we could explain what was going on, and answer questions so no one felt in the dark. Even if I were personally against assisted suicide, if my child was mature enough to make a weighted decision, it would be theirs to make and I would respect that. If they weren't yet at that level of maturity, then the decision falls to the parents/guardians.

The depth of the conversation would of course vary, depending on the maturity of the children involved in the discussion. As much as I value protecting children, I equally value informing them when they're mature enough to comprehend serious topics.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Cosmic Discourse's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: