When is it okay to kill?
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21-06-2015, 08:37 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
(21-06-2015 04:22 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(21-06-2015 03:52 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I know plenty of hunters, but only one who had trophies on his walls. I don't agree with you at all about this, but, from previous experience, I also know better than to ask you to consider views which don't agree with your own.

Feel free to show me wrong.

Again, forget the word trophy...too much baggage.

How about the little girl in the video? She wasn't excited because she knew she had deer steaks coming her way, she was overcome with adrenaline and endorphins because that what happens when predators prey. The desire to hunt and kill in instinctual. Even if I couldn't eat the meat, I would want to hunt.

I'm sure she's representative of hunters in America.

(21-06-2015 04:22 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  One analogy is that even though I don't want kids, I still want to have sex. I can't get around it, the desire is built-in. To suggest that hunting is only ok when done for food, would be similar to suggesting that sex is only ok when done for procreation (where have we heard that before?).

I'm sorry, you seem to be answering a point I haven't made. I didn't "suggest that hunting is only okay when done for food".

Rather than trying to stick a position on me that I don't hold, perhaps you should respond to what I've said ... or is that too much for you?
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22-06-2015, 09:14 AM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
I could never hunt. And I've only been fishing once. Caught one fish, felt terrible, threw it back. Never fished again.

I don't like killing. I'm not a good predator.
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22-06-2015, 09:44 AM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
I don't eat meat, so I personally don't hunt or fish. Since I am vegan, many people are often surprised that I don't have a problem with people hunting or fishing. I would prefer people to get their meat that way if they are going to eat it. I don't agree with people killing animals just to kill them and for no other purpose (i.e. not using them for food).
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22-06-2015, 12:26 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
I'm lazy so I didn't really read the thread up to now.

Killing people? The traditional answer is self-defense, but that's naturally subject to a great deal of varying interpretation when it comes to the finer points - generally aligning with the same innate statistical variation in moral impulses that we all get dealt.

Killing other animals? That certainly depends on how you define "killing". Mass-scale industrialised animal husbandry for human consumption? Pretty much totally unsustainable, and ecologically atrocious (not that that precludes ways of raising animals to eat that I'd say are unobjectionable, but some would say otherwise). Hunting and fishing? If responsibly managed - and in this end of the world, at least, hunting and fishing groups are some of the most true-believing environmental conservationists around - I see no downside and lots of benefits.

Killing anything? Your immune system kills bacteria by the millions every, and even the most sustainable, low-trophic diet necessitates large-scale cultivation of plants (ie, killing them) and concomitant environmental concerns (ie, killing other plants and animals in order to keep our crops alive until we kill them too).

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22-06-2015, 02:40 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
@Thumpalumpacus

Modern Americans who hunt, do it for enjoyment. Before agriculture, humans on this continent hunted out of necessity. No one today has to hunt. Even for those like online biker who dislike hunting, but hunt strictly for the meat (I assure this is a very small minority of hunters in America), it's still only to fulfill one's desire for a luxury that's not needed for survival; a meat that can't be bought at the grocery. It's still for pleasure. If you think that you have one friend who hunts for pleasure, and that the rest hunt for survival, you're kidding yourself.
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22-06-2015, 02:43 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
(22-06-2015 02:40 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  @Thumpalumpacus

Modern Americans who hunt, do it for enjoyment. Before agriculture, humans on this continent hunted out of necessity. No one today has to hunt. Even for those like online biker who dislike hunting, but hunt strictly for the meat (I assure this is a very small minority of hunters in America), it's still only to fulfill one's desire for a luxury that's not needed for survival; a meat that can't be bought at the grocery. It's still for pleasure. If you think that you have one friend who hunts for pleasure, and that the rest hunt for survival, you're kidding yourself.

There are people living at a subsistence level who need to hunt for meat.

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22-06-2015, 02:48 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
(22-06-2015 02:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  There are people living at a subsistence level who need to hunt for meat.

If you had to guess at a percentage of the total American hunting population, what would you say, less than 1%?
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22-06-2015, 03:16 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
(22-06-2015 02:40 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  @Thumpalumpacus

Modern Americans who hunt, do it for enjoyment. Before agriculture, humans on this continent hunted out of necessity. No one today has to hunt. Even for those like online biker who dislike hunting, but hunt strictly for the meat (I assure this is a very small minority of hunters in America), it's still only to fulfill one's desire for a luxury that's not needed for survival; a meat that can't be bought at the grocery. It's still for pleasure. If you think that you have one friend who hunts for pleasure, and that the rest hunt for survival, you're kidding yourself.

I don't care if you enjoy hunting as long as you do it humanely and eat what you kill. My brothers hunt and they like the thrill of the chase, adrenaline etc. But they use what they kill and do it humanely--so I have no issues with it.
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22-06-2015, 04:04 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
(22-06-2015 02:48 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(22-06-2015 02:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  There are people living at a subsistence level who need to hunt for meat.

If you had to guess at a percentage of the total American hunting population, what would you say, less than 1%?

Let's see, 15.1% of the U.S. population is below the poverty line - that's 46.2 million people.

I haven't been able to find the distribution of incomes for the poor, but that's a pretty big pool - the shallow end is likely millions of people.

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22-06-2015, 04:11 PM
RE: When is it okay to kill?
(22-06-2015 02:40 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  @Thumpalumpacus

Modern Americans who hunt, do it for enjoyment. Before agriculture, humans on this continent hunted out of necessity. No one today has to hunt. Even for those like online biker who dislike hunting, but hunt strictly for the meat (I assure this is a very small minority of hunters in America), it's still only to fulfill one's desire for a luxury that's not needed for survival; a meat that can't be bought at the grocery. It's still for pleasure. If you think that you have one friend who hunts for pleasure, and that the rest hunt for survival, you're kidding yourself.

It is, however, possible - if not likely - that the net ecological impact of hunting is less than that of large-scale farming which produced that meat in the supermarket.

The converse being that such practices are not scalable - but then, to reach into the inefficiencies of a meat-heavy diet in the modern era is to move to another topic entirely.

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