When they don't know enough things to communicate with
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03-10-2013, 04:42 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2013 10:13 AM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: When they don't know enough things to communicate with
(02-10-2013 09:54 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Also: Dunning-Kruger. Part of being ignorant is not knowing how ignorant you are.

I have actually used that before to explain how that because some people don't know enough to know what they don't know, means they have no idea how little they actually know compaired to other people.

They agreed with me and talked about how smart other people think they are, when they really aren't. I found that ironic because I was purposely telling them about the Dunning-Kruger effect in reference to them, and they did not let me down with their responce.

I say it to see of they may have an insight to the fact that perhaps they may need to think more deeply on things before claiming to know what they are talking about. Instead they always assume they are the more intelligent one in the study, and others don't realize how much smarter they are than them.

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04-10-2013, 07:56 AM
RE: When they don't know enough things to communicate with
(02-10-2013 05:02 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  My three yr old pointed out the moon in the sky during daylight just the other day. Laughat

I remember specifically pointing it out to my older daughter when she was three. Now (she's currently four), she points out the moon during the day any time she sees it.

Reading the OP of this thread is convincing me of my resolve to make sure my daughters understand the scientific explanations of things as much as humanly possible at their current age.
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04-10-2013, 08:41 AM
RE: When they don't know enough things to communicate with
In my teens I occasionally babysat for a doctor's kids. A boy and a girl between the ages of 4 and 6. One night as we walked toward the kitchen for their snack the huge full moon was visible out the patio doors. I brought them both over to the door and said let's go outside a minute and look at the moon. They were scared! I talked to them and explained simply what the moon was and that it was nothing to be afraid of.

The next time the doctor's wife picked me up to babysit she went on and on about how good I was with kids since I taught them about the moon! Are you kidding me?

Some people not only don't have a clue, they don't care to. Others don't even think it's important to provide basic information for their kids.

I’m not anti-social. I’m pro-solitude. ~Author Unknown
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04-10-2013, 09:14 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2013 09:17 AM by kim.)
RE: When they don't know enough things to communicate with
(02-10-2013 07:02 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  But she actually thought the moon being visible during the day could be a seasonal thing. If a small kid asked my that, I'd give them a pass, but an adult?
Uhm... Raptor J... not to be too personal or nosy but uh... are we dating this brainiac? Cause... that might get a little tricky and a lot stressful. Yea, I'm just butting in on your possible love life. I'm a chick; it's what we do. Drinking Beverage

(03-10-2013 04:42 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I say it to see of they may have an insite as to the fact that perhaps they may need to think more deeply on things before claiming to know what they are talking about. Instead they always assume they are the more intelligent one in the study, and others don't realize how much smarter they are than them.

Ha - I've encountered this when trying to explain a few things to a couple of different people. It's frustrating and I usually just walk away wide eyed that they don't get that it really is them. I gotta chuckle or I think I'd cry. Tongue

I am kind of lucky, I have a friend who really does know that he doesn't know stuff and he comes to me and asks me things. He's is quite capable of critical thinking, reason, and logic, he is just lacking a ton of information. He soaks it all up like a sponge but can be a bit gullible when he sees aliens all over the History channel. Blink

He's told me a few times that he asks me specifically because I don't belittle him. He realizes his questions are probably stupid but he doesn't know for certain until long after we discuss things. The very fact that he asks at all, has become something I do take seriously and it has caused me to look at my own education with greater responsibility.

The thing is, I often step back and apply Dunning-Kruger to myself. Recalling my own level of "I don't know", helps me slow things down when answering questions I might find "common knowledge" and I've learned, since there are a lot of things I know I don't know, I have to think that just the asking is a critical step in learning and knowing.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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04-10-2013, 09:30 AM
RE: When they don't know enough things to communicate with
(02-10-2013 03:32 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  When I first pointed it out to her, that it was in the day time sky, she asked if that was a new thing...

Whoa. Shocking I officially feel like a genius now. Smartass

Thanks for sharing, RJ.

I don't typically get into debates about religion with anyone, just because I still am so new to the atheism thing. And for precisely the reason you mention - I don't think I know enough to defend my position as well as I'd like.

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04-10-2013, 10:27 AM
RE: When they don't know enough things to communicate with
(02-10-2013 04:58 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  ...
I have this one friend
...

I was thinking along the same lines as Kim.

I was thinking... this girl has gotta be really HAWT!

Right?

Thumbsup

Kim also mentioned about not belittling.

I think your friend would actually be too thick to realise that she was being belittled.

Ask this, next time...

"What are you, six?!?"

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04-10-2013, 11:26 AM
RE: When they don't know enough things to communicate with
(04-10-2013 09:14 AM)kim Wrote:  
(02-10-2013 07:02 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  But she actually thought the moon being visible during the day could be a seasonal thing. If a small kid asked my that, I'd give them a pass, but an adult?
Uhm... Raptor J... not to be too personal or nosy but uh... are we dating this brainiac? Cause... that might get a little tricky and a lot stressful. Yea, I'm just butting in on your possible love life. I'm a chick; it's what we do. Drinking Beverage

No I am not, but it’s not far off from reality. It may not be the case with her as I am not dating her, but it is a problem I tend to have in dating girls in general. This, sadly, is not uncommon for girls I meet, and maybe date. Not necessarily the moon thing, but things of this nature. I have stories for days like this of many girls I’ve tried dating. I don’t want to come off sexist by implying it’s girls. It’s just that it’s girls who I date so it’s girls in my dating experience. I’m certain it is just as bad with guys too.

I have a recent experience for example, that isn’t as bad as my other examples, but still pretty stupid if you give it half a thought. There was this other girl I was talking to, who happens to be very religious. We were interested in each other and were just testing out if our conflicting beliefs would get too much in the way and were discussing her religious beliefs, and why I did not believe.

At some point I was trying to explain how astronomers could determine the big bang happened based on the expansion of galaxies and their red shift. She didn’t understand this so I went for my copy of the “Illustrated Universe in a Nutshell”, by Hawkins, that has great images of the EM spectrum so that I could explain better what I meant. When I opened the book the first page it opened to was the exact page I was looking for.

She said that was not coincidence, that to her that was proof of “God” that it opened directly to the page I wanted. She was not kidding. She believes this is how the world actually works. I was just said, “Really? “God” has nothing more important to do than help me find a page in a book that I’m looking for in order to save me moments of time flipping through the pages myself, like I do every single other time. But this time “he” feels the need to intervene, but only when it’s in effort to so evidence that there is no reason to need to believe that “he” exist? That doesn’t make any sense.”

Needless to say, that relationship never got off the ground…

(04-10-2013 09:14 AM)kim Wrote:  
(03-10-2013 04:42 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I say it to see of they may have an insight as to the fact that perhaps they may need to think more deeply on things before claiming to know what they are talking about. Instead they always assume they are the more intelligent one in the study, and others don't realize how much smarter they are than them.

… The very fact that he asks at all, has become something I do take seriously and it has caused me to look at my own education with greater responsibility.

The thing is, I often step back and apply Dunning-Kruger to myself. Recalling my own level of "I don't know", helps me slow things down when answering questions I might find "common knowledge" and I've learned, since there are a lot of things I know I don't know, I have to think that just the asking is a critical step in learning and knowing.

I do the exact same thing. It doesn’t help to mock them for not knowing something “common place” because then they will just never know. Most people don’t even bother asking. I always consider my place in the Dunning-Kruger effect too, and think the most interesting part of that study is that the more you know, the more you realize you don’t know and the more you’re willing to admit that you don’t know because you know enough to know what you don’t know and how much you may not even realize you don’t know that you don’t know. It’s very humbling to think about, and important to do I think.

I’m quite aware of how little I know, which is also what stuns me about people I meant, where I know this exact massive amount of things that I know that they don’t know (this happens often in religious debate) but they think they have all the necessary information. But to yourself you think, ‘No, you don’t. you just need to be willing to learn a little bit more and you’d understand why this or that particular religious belief is unfounded’. But if they believe they already have it all worked out and already know everything they need to, than why would they bother?

I continue to study and learn for the very reason that I know that there is much more I don’t know. I’m trying to close those gaps in my knowledge and become less ignorant. I don’t study because I want to be smarter. That’s not my motivation at all. I study because I want to be less “stupid”. That’s kind of a pejorative way of putting it, but it’s true. Many times I have had people tell me I’m really smart, and I always correct them and tell them, “No I’m not smart, I just know things that smarter people than me made available for me to know. I’m not smart, I’m average. I know the amount of stuff that I thinks everyone should know. The average for knowledge should be around where I am. It’s not that I’m smarter than other people, it’s that they don’t know enough things and they should but don’t bother to.” And that’s sad to me.

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04-10-2013, 03:33 PM
RE: When they don't know enough things to communicate with
Every once in a while I do come up against Evangelicals who try to debate with me. I do not hide what I am, and most people who know me are not surprised when they learn of my atheism. But every so often a stranger hears while in public and I can't be rude so I am forced into a debate on my beliefs.

Now I am a student of Engineering. I have had two years of Chemistry, a year of advanced physics, plus several classes in paleontology, archeology, and geology. I have, therefore, a good deal of scientific education under my belt. And it stuns me the gap between the knowledge that I have and those Evangelicals who try to debate me. Even the vocabulary is different. Scientists don't use words in the same way that non-science people do. I am not shocked by the lack of knowledge on homo habilis, or the radioactive half-life of Uranium, or the formation of shallow ocean rocks. I am shocked by the simple failure to understand the basic premises behind science. Words like "theory," "hypothesis," "evidence," all mean different things to a scientist than to someone who is a scientific illiterate. And the level of scientific illiteracy is rather frightening.
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04-10-2013, 10:17 PM
RE: When they don't know enough things to communicate with
(04-10-2013 03:33 PM)natachan Wrote:  ...the level of scientific illiteracy is rather frightening.

Very frightening.

...
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05-10-2013, 09:09 PM
RE: When they don't know enough things to communicate with
My mother told me a couple weeks ago that science couldn't be right because they keep changing their minds.
I told her "that's what science IS mom, when new information is discovered, theories might change to incorporate ne[Image: double_facepalm-jpg.3617]w information"

I'm not normally like this.
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