Where do Jovies rights stop and mine start?
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29-02-2016, 09:01 AM
RE: Where do Jovies rights stop and mine start?
(29-02-2016 08:25 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 03:42 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  I've just gotten off the phone trying to talk to the local police station in order to determine what my legal rights are with regard to challenging Jovies who extol their virtues in a public place. The police said, and I quote: "We are not here to discuss the legalities of the case". I said "But I need to know so who do I talk to?". They hung up.

I should have done what I wanted to do in the first place - contact the Chief Constable.

I think the actions of the police officers at the scene, while incorrect, are understandable.

They're after an easy life. They don't want confrontations on their "patch". And however right you may be, their overriding concern is to "keep the peace". Anything which they might regard as having the potential to disrupt might mean they will ask you to "move on".

It's not about rights and wrongs. It's about them avoiding trouble.

Don't get me wrong, I sympathise with your position. Far too often religious proselytizers are given a free ride, but for the most part I'm sure you'll agree that in the UK at any rate, JWs are regarded as weirdos and are there to be ignored. The fact that they resort to threatening you with the police is simply a consequence of their inability to argue coherently and cogently and an (effective) means of getting you out of the way.

Put your complaint in writing to the Chief Constable, that way it can't be ignored.

I suspect there are more effective means of annoying them if they make a habit of turning up where they do on a regular basis.

Best of luck.

I've given you a like SD because one is deserved for this comment.

I think that you are right, the Police saw my actions as confrontational which might have resulted in some kind of incident and, not wanting to have one, tried to avoid the possibility of trouble by asking me to move on.

As you say, that's fine. I can see the logic. However, how does one engage with these fuckwits in a public space if all that happens is that the Police move people like me on? I would have been OK if we were both asked to move on. That would have been fairer - but not fair. But, to ask me to move on wasn't cricket.

I wasn't out to annoy. I was out to peaceably confront.

Thanks for taking the trouble to respond. Much appreciated.

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01-03-2016, 09:38 AM
RE: Where do Jovies rights stop and mine start?
I managed to get to talk to some high ranking bod at the local nick who was kind enough to see me.

Here's basically, what he said: "Firstly, the Police have a difficult job to do. It's getting more difficult by the day and the resources are decreasing making it even more difficult. It would be wonderful to Police perfectly but in today's environment, they have to be practical. If two parties disagree in a public place and one of the parties complains to the Police, then they are legally obliged to respond and, to defuse the situation as quickly as possible, the non-complaining party is requested to vacate the vicinity."

I pointed out that, taken to its logical conclusion, freedom of speech in a public space has effectively been ended.

He shrugged his shoulders and said, "In our situation, what would you have done?" I said, "Moved both parties on. That way, the Police are not being seen to be taking sides."

A that point he decided that he couldn't spare me any more time, apologised and left.

So, it would appear that if we have an argument in a public place and no one complains, it's fine. If one party complains, the other will be asked to vacate the vicinity.

Freedom of speech RIP.

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01-03-2016, 10:08 AM
RE: Where do Jovies rights stop and mine start?
I sympathise with you completely. I have to walk past the watchtower wavers every day to get to work. I actually stood for a couple of minutes last week and watched a very earnest Asian guy explaining in detail to the witness why Islam is a better faith, the poor witness looked mortified and was not attempting to argue. I had a good laugh.

They can dish it out but they really can't take it. Hence calling the police when they're losing an argument - fancy relying on the secular plod to defend big omniscient universe building Jehovah! Surely they should have just prayed for you to go away or be struck down?

If you fancy taking them on again I suggest you take a friend, and when they threaten to call the police you do it first, if you can engage them in a conversation about gay people (maybe take a gay friend) you might get them slapped for homophobic hate speech.

I sometimes think I should take them on, but life's too short. I content myself with laughing loudly while walking past their stupid posters and shaking my head in pity.
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01-03-2016, 10:27 AM
RE: Where do Jovies rights stop and mine start?
(01-03-2016 10:08 AM)monkeygirl Wrote:  I sympathise with you completely. I have to walk past the watchtower wavers every day to get to work. I actually stood for a couple of minutes last week and watched a very earnest Asian guy explaining in detail to the witness why Islam is a better faith, the poor witness looked mortified and was not attempting to argue. I had a good laugh.

They can dish it out but they really can't take it. Hence calling the police when they're losing an argument - fancy relying on the secular plod to defend big omniscient universe building Jehovah! Surely they should have just prayed for you to go away or be struck down?

If you fancy taking them on again I suggest you take a friend, and when they threaten to call the police you do it first, if you can engage them in a conversation about gay people (maybe take a gay friend) you might get them slapped for homophobic hate speech.

I sometimes think I should take them on, but life's too short. I content myself with laughing loudly while walking past their stupid posters and shaking my head in pity.

When I was young and at uni., I had time on my hands. I protested against the things that I wanted to change.

I then got a job, got married, got the mortgage and the kids. I didn't even have time to fart, let alone protest.

Now, I'm an old twat and have lots of time for this protesting shit.

You know what I've learned?

It's for the young to protest for the old and for the old to protest for the young. If you are middle-aged, you don't have time to care.

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01-03-2016, 12:08 PM
RE: Where do Jovies rights stop and mine start?
I read through the posts and didn't see this question:

Do they need a permit to stand on a public space and preach? In many American cities and towns anyone wanting to proselytize to others, no matter the subject, a permit is required. It's a solicitation permit from the city/town and usually is free or has a very small fee. If there is a requirement and they don't have it, it is a crime, misdemeanor only, and even though they might not ticket them they will make them move on.

Otherwise, standing your ground, making a public complaint in the newspaper or some such is about all you can do. You could stand next to them and every time they approach someone, preach your own brand of ideas. Of course you risk being just as annoying as they are but you would have equal time.

Singing nursery rhymes to them might be fun or reciting other fairytales. It would be creative and non-threatening. Smile

I had a street preacher approach me twice in the same district within a week. I was meeting friends for a party one evening (still light out) as I crossed the street from where I parked he approached me spewing xtian BS and waving his book of babble at me. I ignored him and kept going. He followed me shouting and slapping his babble for about a half a block. This I did not like. I mentioned it to my friends who were atheists as well. When we left a couple of the men walked me to my car to see if he would be aggressive to them. He was gone.

Then a week later we met at a place two doors down from the week before and I parked in the same place, crossed the street and the preacher was back. As he approached me I held up my hand with my phone in it, in a stay back motion and loudly called, "If that's not a recipe book of brownies you want to share, then I'm calling to complain." He wheeled around and headed the other direction. Laugh out load

You can take the option of challenging their dogma without challenging them directly. The police should have no complaint about this. Be creative and let us know how it goes. Thx for sharing. Smile

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01-03-2016, 12:38 PM
RE: Where do Jovies rights stop and mine start?
(01-03-2016 12:08 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  I read through the posts and didn't see this question:

Do they need a permit to stand on a public space and preach? In many American cities and towns anyone wanting to proselytize to others, no matter the subject, a permit is required. It's a solicitation permit from the city/town and usually is free or has a very small fee. If there is a requirement and they don't have it, it is a crime, misdemeanor only, and even though they might not ticket them they will make them move on.

Otherwise, standing your ground, making a public complaint in the newspaper or some such is about all you can do. You could stand next to them and every time they approach someone, preach your own brand of ideas. Of course you risk being just as annoying as they are but you would have equal time.

Singing nursery rhymes to them might be fun or reciting other fairytales. It would be creative and non-threatening. Smile

I had a street preacher approach me twice in the same district within a week. I was meeting friends for a party one evening (still light out) as I crossed the street from where I parked he approached me spewing xtian BS and waving his book of babble at me. I ignored him and kept going. He followed me shouting and slapping his babble for about a half a block. This I did not like. I mentioned it to my friends who were atheists as well. When we left a couple of the men walked me to my car to see if he would be aggressive to them. He was gone.

Then a week later we met at a place two doors down from the week before and I parked in the same place, crossed the street and the preacher was back. As he approached me I held up my hand with my phone in it, in a stay back motion and loudly called, "If that's not a recipe book of brownies you want to share, then I'm calling to complain." He wheeled around and headed the other direction. Laugh out load

You can take the option of challenging their dogma without challenging them directly. The police should have no complaint about this. Be creative and let us know how it goes. Thx for sharing. Smile
I have slowly come to the conclusion that this approach, of engaging with the enemy head-on, isn't gonna work. I need to take a step back and reappraise.

Do I want to confront them head on? Yes, absolutely. The issue here is that jovies are just too dumb to have a conversation with and, in any case will call the local plod to get rid of me. Local plod will ask me to leave in order that the situation doesn't escalate. I don't blame them for this but it does mean that I lose my rights to disagree.

Religtards in the UK don't need a permit to extol their supposed virtues afaik. In any case, they'd simply get one. Besides, I don't want to restrict their rights. Much as I don't like their beliefs, they have rights too.

Basically, although I want to, it looks as though taking them head-on is a non-starter.

I guess that the only realistic option that I have is to devise a way of getting under their skin but not in a way that plod could find offensive because, if they did, they could ask me to move on or worse.

It's not my preferred option. It's not even a good option but, it's better than what I have now - which is no options.

Thanks and take some repBig Grin

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30-03-2016, 06:32 AM (This post was last modified: 30-03-2016 06:42 AM by Lost the Faith.)
RE: Where do Jovies rights stop and mine start?
Other than saying "I was handed a copy of the watchtower" you didn't say who approached whom. If the jovies approached you, then their right to free speech ends the moment you say, no thanks, I'm not interested. You have the right not to be badgered by them.
On the other hand, if you approached them on a quest to disprove their beliefs, then it was your responsibility to leave once they made it known that they weren't interested in talking to you. They have the right not to be badgered by you. Please, correct me if I'm wrong but, I tend to think the latter is what happened.
If they had approached you and you became confrontational with them, they would have just left, not called the police.
It sounds to me like you approached them and wouldn't leave when asked to, that's why they called the cops. And that's why the cops sided with them. Like I said, please correct me if I'm wrong.
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05-04-2016, 02:55 PM
RE: Where do Jovies rights stop and mine start?
(28-02-2016 09:28 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  I posted here some time ago but stopped for various reason. I'm now back to post about one topic in particular.

I've posted it in this particular part of the forum because it seemed the most appropriate. If Mods feel that it is better moved to a different part of the forum, then I'm fine with that.

Religtards think that they have the right to extol the virtues of their particular form of religtardology in any public space that they wish to avail themselves of. I make no apologies for referring to them as religtards and their belief system as religtardology, by the way. If they feel that they have the right to disrespect the Human Race by inflicting their particular brand of un-provable, evil stupidity on it, then I reserve the right to oppose their views.

On Saturday, I was wandering through town when I was handed a copy of the watchtower. Yes, I'm aware that watchtower should be capitalised but it is not deserving of such. I challenged the two jovies to prove that god existed. They always hunt in pairs, don't they. They pointed to the babble. I pointed out that it was a circular argument. Then, I had to explain what a circular argument was, dohWeeping. They then pointed to some trees and intimated that god had created themLaughat. "So", I said, "you don't believe in evolution?" I then asked them if they had even read a science book? They responded by telling me what jesus supposedly said. I challenged them to prove that jesus existed. At this point, the senior jovie of the two told me that if I didn't leave, he would call the Police. I pointed out that this was a public space and that I was exercising my right to freedom of speech - just like they were. I also wish to point out that I had not raised my voice, nor had I invaded their personal space, nor had I sworn, nor had I gesticulated in a threatening manner and had deliberately kept my hands in my pockets. I'd been neither insulting nor threatening. On this basis, calling the Police was fine with me because CCTV would prove me right. Basically, I'd been polite but firm in my challenge of their belief system.

Although the Police were polite, they were also firm with me and asked me to vacate the area and wouldn't take no for an answer. I asked why they were allowing one group freedom of speech but were restricting my freedom? Again, they asked me to move on.

I'd be interested to hear the views of this forum.

I know the cops where I live would ask the atheist to leave. They may agree with the atheist, but the religitards tend to turn violent. The cops know this. They know that most likely the atheist will not resort to violence. Just my opinion and based on talking to a few cops I know.
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05-04-2016, 02:56 PM
RE: Where do Jovies rights stop and mine start?
On the other had, a copy of the watchtower would make nice kindling.
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05-04-2016, 03:38 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2016 03:57 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Where do Jovies rights stop and mine start?
(05-04-2016 02:56 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  On the other had, a copy of the watchtower would make nice kindling.

You could say, "May I have a few more please. My bird is partial to religious tracts.
He likes them for the bottom of his cage.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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