Where do we go from here?
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21-03-2013, 11:06 AM
Where do we go from here?
There is plenty of discussion across the board of what is the best course of action for both our nation(s) as well as our species. Things like Liberal vs Conservative, Capitalism vs Socialism and Democracy vs Anarchy. We are left though in constantly wondering whether which system can best handle the stresses of population growth, food production, Global Warming, Disease and other potential unknown events. Coupled with the ever constant advance of technological progress leaves us with I think some very valid questions. Can any of above economic and political systems handle these present and future dangers and if so which one and for how long? Is there other economic ideas out there that should be implemented, either immediately or in the future, to help alleviate the issues that the world deals with today and if so then what evidence is there for its plausibility and practicality.

What system, or possibly systems, of economics do you think that the world should move towards? Do you think that these systems have limits as to how long they can be effective or do you think that they are adaptable enough that we need hardly worry about it?

In short tell your view of the best economical system for present and future and say why you think it can handle the stresses of our complex world.

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21-03-2013, 11:48 AM
RE: Where do we go from here?
Well, one of my favorite songs from one of the best rap duos of all time (BlackStar) is Thieves in the Night .

Quoting a couple of bars from that song by Talib Kweli:

'"Give me the fortune, keep the fame," said my man Louis
I agreed, know what he mean, because we live the truest lie
I asked him why we follow the law of the bluest eye
He looked at me, he thought about it-- was like, "I'm clueless, why?"
The question was rhetorical, the answer is horrible
Our morals are out of place and got our lives full of sorrow
And so tomorrow comin' later than usual; waitin' on someone to pity us
While we findin' beauty in the hideous
They say money's the root of all evil, but I can't tell
You know what I mean: pesos, francs, yens, cowrie shells, dollar bills
Or is it the mindstate that's ill?
Creating crime rates to fill the new prisons they build
Over money and religion there's more blood to spill
The wounds of slaves in cotton fields that never heal
What's the deal?'

The problem isn't what system, or at least, you need more-- It's how do we change people's minds? Or at least: How do we transition society, successfully, into a new system, and/or way of thinking, to get the problems solved? Which could be the same question.

If people can't be convinced to behave and think rationally, or simply to use reason more often, think socially, think collectively, see the big picture, there really isn't any thing that can be done. You could have the perfect system, but it doesn't matter if it can't be implemented, and/or the system is only, still, represented by the people controlling it through governance and interaction.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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21-03-2013, 01:39 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
Each country, and each region, needs systems that cater to them.

Some regions are more or less educated. Some are more or less impoverished. Some are more or less corrupt. Some are more or less have ideological/cultural baggage. There wouldn't be a one fits all system.

Now, the goal of these systems would be to drive towards less suffering (citizens, foreigners, environment), more equality of opportunity, and innovation rather than stagnation.
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21-03-2013, 02:15 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
(21-03-2013 01:39 PM)poolboyg88 Wrote:  Each country, and each region, needs systems that cater to them.

Some regions are more or less educated. Some are more or less impoverished. Some are more or less corrupt. Some are more or less have ideological/cultural baggage. There wouldn't be a one fits all system.

Now, the goal of these systems would be to drive towards less suffering (citizens, foreigners, environment), more equality of opportunity, and innovation rather than stagnation.
So do you think it's a waste of time or even wrong for a country to say that we need to spread x ( x being whatever style of system you prefer) and that each country should experiment with what it thinks works best so long as certain rules are followed? What is your view of countries like Singapore, where there are strict social rules but capitalistic rules are far more laxed. What limits do you think we should place on whether a country goes to far. Is a limit on speech for instance too far or is it physical harm to people the standard we should use and allow other things western culture deems necessary so long as they allow equal opportunity, innovation, etc...?

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21-03-2013, 02:22 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
(21-03-2013 11:48 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  Well, one of my favorite songs from one of the best rap duos of all time (BlackStar) is Thieves in the Night .

Quoting a couple of bars from that song by Talib Kweli:

'"Give me the fortune, keep the fame," said my man Louis
I agreed, know what he mean, because we live the truest lie
I asked him why we follow the law of the bluest eye
He looked at me, he thought about it-- was like, "I'm clueless, why?"
The question was rhetorical, the answer is horrible
Our morals are out of place and got our lives full of sorrow
And so tomorrow comin' later than usual; waitin' on someone to pity us
While we findin' beauty in the hideous
They say money's the root of all evil, but I can't tell
You know what I mean: pesos, francs, yens, cowrie shells, dollar bills
Or is it the mindstate that's ill?
Creating crime rates to fill the new prisons they build
Over money and religion there's more blood to spill
The wounds of slaves in cotton fields that never heal
What's the deal?'

The problem isn't what system, or at least, you need more-- It's how do we change people's minds? Or at least: How do we transition society, successfully, into a new system, and/or way of thinking, to get the problems solved? Which could be the same question.

If people can't be convinced to behave and think rationally, or simply to use reason more often, think socially, think collectively, see the big picture, there really isn't any thing that can be done. You could have the perfect system, but it doesn't matter if it can't be implemented, and/or the system is only, still, represented by the people controlling it through governance and interaction.
That's an interesting thought. So could it be a chicken/egg dichotomy? Is the system that we use determine what ideas our culture generate or does the idea our culture generates determine what system we use. For instance, and keep in mind that this is purely hypothetical.

Some argue that the U.S 's relaxed free speech laws allow many strange ideas to exist that have no merit. Case in point is creationism. So is it, more harmful to allow creationism room, or more harmful to suppress it, seeing as how the non critical ideas/faith based ideas of creationism directly affect the decisions that are made in regards to policy, economy, and education?

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21-03-2013, 03:25 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2013 05:23 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Where do we go from here?
Our world is seemingly complex, but beneath this is a fundamental simplicity. All things of human culture are precipitations of human consciousness within the available materials on Earth. A state is both a product and an engine of consciousness. It takes people in at one end of history and it lets them out on another, and what happens between is an alchemical reaction of all the ingredients than a human society has, changing the people's consciousness.

All things incarnate the consciousness and they allow it to change, to evolve. If the vessel of consciousness is adequate, it evolves. If it's bad, then shit happens. But sooner or later, shit happens and the old form breaks, how peacefully or bloodily, that depends on how big and tough it was. And the contents (people) spill out and there is a period of chaos. The states and cultures and groups are like a succession of vessels, of buckets, one fitting into another, each brewing its own batch of people and sooner or later the vessel outlives its endurance and breaks.

We are today in such a moment in history nearly all the vessels of consciousness broke down. The family, the municipality, the church, the state, the nation, the money, capitalism, the peace, the global economy and natural environment itself, it all goes to shit and none of that gives us any security today. And there are some nasty consequences. Money, the ever-dissolving life-fluid of economy, now gnaws at everything and dissolves all morality and tradition that's left.

To those who aren't blinded by their white middle class privilege, nor any fanaticism, must see that we need to make everything anew. We must both do things in a completely new way, yet employ certain ancient, timeless universal principles. Everything between that is useless.

(21-03-2013 11:06 AM)Foxcanine1 Wrote:  There is plenty of discussion across the board of what is the best course of action for both our nation(s) as well as our species. Things like Liberal vs Conservative, Capitalism vs Socialism and Democracy vs Anarchy. We are left though in constantly wondering whether which system can best handle the stresses of population growth, food production, Global Warming, Disease and other potential unknown events. Coupled with the ever constant advance of technological progress leaves us with I think some very valid questions. Can any of above economic and political systems handle these present and future dangers and if so which one and for how long? Is there other economic ideas out there that should be implemented, either immediately or in the future, to help alleviate the issues that the world deals with today and if so then what evidence is there for its plausibility and practicality.

What system, or possibly systems, of economics do you think that the world should move towards? Do you think that these systems have limits as to how long they can be effective or do you think that they are adaptable enough that we need hardly worry about it?

In short tell your view of the best economical system for present and future and say why you think it can handle the stresses of our complex world.
I challenge the very concept of ownership that we have. This ownership is so unnatural, that it requires laws, states, military, police, courts and prisons to uphold, or it won't last. This is the thing that made capitalism possible, the accumulation of capital. I always find it funny how these classical economists (like my dean) praise the blessing of freedom, capitalism and unlimited ownership, yet they curse the state that it's greedy and authoritative. Well, the state is a mirror of capitalism, there could be no such ownership of capital without the state to back it up, and who can blame the state for being greedy as well? Economists can, apparently.

So it's ownership. To hell with unlimited ownership. When a child tries to take a cookie, we slap his hand. When somebody tries to take something that's ours, we hit him. When a state tries to conquer mines in our state, we use these mines to build tanks to destroy the enemy army. In the end, we hate each other and waste both our resources. To hell with that!
We must declare all resources a common heritage of humanity. Nothing short of that will end the conflict.

A side note... The very possibility of owning natural resources is a great curse. Nevermind the (future?) global war for resources. There are resource wars today. Sudan has oil. Congo has columbium and tantal (elements loved by Apple and IBM). And of course, middle East has oil. The problem with resources is, that people try to own them and rely on them with everything. The result is a super-rich sheikh, a poor country controlled by the army, no institutions to speak of, ignorant and illiterate people and lots, lots of foreign financial aid. In comparison, look at a barren, empty island, devoid of resources, plagued by earthquakes. It's called Japan.

We must know what we want. We must produce only such products that we truly want and need, in best quality and needed amount. We must rationalize the production. No more we can afford to waste resources by creating countless a arrays of high-end and low-end products and fashion.

We must realize who are we, what are we here for and where are we going. We must be no longer just passive ingredients in a vessel of consciousness. We must take control of all the instruments that we have, and use them and discard them according to reason, not culture. The cliche says, it is easier to imagine the end of the world, than the end of capitalism. (thanks, Hollywood) People can't imagine the world without states, money, family and work, yet find all of these often very inadequate. We must realize that all these are products of our consciousness and when the consciousness evolves, it needs to discard old forms (as peacefully as possible) and build new ones.
The new forms must be subject to human reason - thus human control. They must not be just a culture that "kind of happens to us". Such a form of culture will then grow with us easily and accommodate as our consciousness changes. Introducing ownership again would make it rigid and result in destructive conflict. Give people abundance, not ownership. There is no criminality with stealing air.

Instead of spreading democracy and law, these dangerous illusions, give people abundance and education.
I'd love people to understand these principles, how simple the present crisis is and how simple is the solution. Such people can then spread the solution - the Resource-Based Economy. I don't want followers, followers follow anything.
If you don't understand, please assume every word has meaning and ask me for that meaning.

Lesson: asking me open questions is like opening the floodgates.
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21-03-2013, 03:48 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2013 03:52 PM by TrulyX.)
RE: Where do we go from here?
(21-03-2013 02:22 PM)Foxcanine1 Wrote:  That's an interesting thought. So could it be a chicken/egg dichotomy? Is the system that we use determine what ideas our culture generate or does the idea our culture generates determine what system we use. For instance, and keep in mind that this is purely hypothetical.

Some argue that the U.S 's relaxed free speech laws allow many strange ideas to exist that have no merit. Case in point is creationism. So is it, more harmful to allow creationism room, or more harmful to suppress it, seeing as how the non critical ideas/faith based ideas of creationism directly affect the decisions that are made in regards to policy, economy, and education?

I see it as a catch 22, or at least, that is what it can become. It can also be looked at like a chicken/egg, but we should all be aware that the egg came first (or maybe the chicken). The irrational ideas that the majority of individuals held within societies helped lead to the structures of those societies and/or then, whatever new, liberal ideas were able to be added in over time, helped shape them further. The goal would be to provide more liberal ideas, in order to move society forward toward progress.

Free speech, however, is something that every person should want, and fight to keep, for any person, regardless of their opinions and/or views. It's one of the liberal ideas that helped society move forward. What hurts is when speech of certain individuals is suppressed, in one way or the other. You can't have the people in society who say creationism is okay, or who say, 'let people believe what they want to believe'. For every person with a dumbass idea, there has to be another person to call them a dumbass. The latter person can't just keep to themselves. You must maintain balance.

I'd view it more like capitalism is a system that promotes negative behavior, that already falls in line with irrational and immoral human behavior and ideology, that is destructive to society. When you have blatantly irrational, unreasonable views as the core of your system, and people cannot even understanding the nature or practicality of a system, what the goal of economics should be, in general, or if they can't handle the responsibilities, that's bad and possibly unsustainable.

The goal with capitalism, for a lot of people, since Marx, has been to move toward socialism, and to some extent, just not as much as you would like, you can see that, for the most part, the major powers of the world have implemented somewhat socialist types of policies and mixed economic systems. There was, however, a failure to kill, especially in America, the fundamentally flawed elements and dogma of the capitalist way of thinking, and thus we have the problems we have today. To a lot of people, we have actually moved in a negative direction.

Over time, certain ideas just naturally die away. People who were born into certain ideology simply die, new generations become more liberal and exposed to more ideas a culture, communication expands, people become more aware of the problems and solution, science makes new discoveries that make old beliefs asinine, etc.

The goal is making the transition speed up, keeping the opposition from suppressing good ideas, ultimately and getting a good and sustainable social, economic, political structure in place.

To add, you might actually have a time clock also, looking at a lot of future problems like: asteroids hitting the earth, Global Warming, unpredictable weather, wars and conflicts, WMDs, food, energy and water supplies, environmental problems, socioeconomic problems, etc. Really any combination or mixture of those things could lead to things hitting a boiling point. You obviously want to avoid that point and by targeting the causes as soon as possible.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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22-03-2013, 03:25 AM
RE: Where do we go from here?
(21-03-2013 03:48 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  Free speech, however, is something that every person should want, and fight to keep, for any person, regardless of their opinions and/or views. It's one of the liberal ideas that helped society move forward. What hurts is when speech of certain individuals is suppressed, in one way or the other. You can't have the people in society who say creationism is okay, or who say, 'let people believe what they want to believe'. For every person with a dumbass idea, there has to be another person to call them a dumbass. The latter person can't just keep to themselves. You must maintain balance.
As for free speech, I'd say it should solve itself by education. We need to educate people, that nobody has the right to their own opinion. Personal opinions don't matter, we either arrive at a knowledge through scientific method, or we don't know it yet.

(21-03-2013 03:48 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  The goal with capitalism, for a lot of people, since Marx, has been to move toward socialism, and to some extent, just not as much as you would like, you can see that, for the most part, the major powers of the world have implemented somewhat socialist types of policies and mixed economic systems. There was, however, a failure to kill, especially in America, the fundamentally flawed elements and dogma of the capitalist way of thinking, and thus we have the problems we have today. To a lot of people, we have actually moved in a negative direction.
Can you tell me please, which people proposed this move towards socialism? Not just Marx, was there any Adam Smith or other classic among them? They seemed to believe in things like trickle-down of wealth, that eventually we'll all have enough wealth just to stop working and then there'll be socialism.
However, the ownership we have allows for unlimited accumulation of personal wealth and therefore for unlimited inequality and poverty, that only forces people to expand further and produce "empty callories" of economic growth. And nobody dares to question that. The most radical any economist (I know) can get is to return to the golden standard. SRSLY? Back to the age of bank robberies, stolen belt pouches and government ban on private gold mining? Back to the age of coin shaving and biting the coins to see if they're true? As you say, people need to look at practicality of the system and I don't just mean the gold is heavy.

I have set out to "convert" my dean to RBE. He wants essays and presentations, I'll give him that and more. If he read just the one book I pointed him at, "The best money can't buy", my job would be done. I'll also show the books to anyone who asks.

(21-03-2013 03:48 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  Over time, certain ideas just naturally die away. People who were born into certain ideology simply die, new generations become more liberal and exposed to more ideas a culture, communication expands, people become more aware of the problems and solution, science makes new discoveries that make old beliefs asinine, etc.
Not just over time. There's a wonderful mechanism called generational revolt. Only now we see something else yet. We see the internet natives growing up in a whole different world than anyone before. We see even old people joining them, disillusioned by all the useless revolutions. We see leftists speaking out for rightful business. The result is, the changes are faster than most people can imagine, yet alone notice. In medieval ages it took centuries to keep a good idea in head and keep the head on one's neck. Today the global consciousness expands in explosive speed.

(21-03-2013 03:48 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  The goal is making the transition speed up, keeping the opposition from suppressing good ideas, ultimately and getting a good and sustainable social, economic, political structure in place.
I'd say that all political structures are by definition unsustainable. And the sustainable ones are not necessarily good. The Chinese empire was so good at isolated sustaining, that sociologists theoretize it might have continued forever if the white men didn't destroy it from the outside.
Again, RBE does not have politics, if a decision needs to be made, measure the need, make an experiment and come to a conclusion. Let the reality itself rule. As for social structures, it's all good how we call ourselves, if no part of the structure has a lack goods and services for that.

(21-03-2013 03:48 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  To add, you might actually have a time clock also, looking at a lot of future problems like: asteroids hitting the earth, Global Warming, unpredictable weather, wars and conflicts, WMDs, food, energy and water supplies, environmental problems, socioeconomic problems, etc. Really any combination or mixture of those things could lead to things hitting a boiling point. You obviously want to avoid that point and by targeting the causes as soon as possible.
RBE solves all these, perhaps except of the asteroids. Most scientists I know of, they say we don't have time, 10,15 years tops to radically change the way we do things.
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22-03-2013, 08:07 AM
RE: Where do we go from here?
There seems to be but one direction - war. A big, fat, species-reducing worldwide conflagration. There's just too many stupid, greedy, short-sighted monkeys holding to outmoded paradigms for there to be any kind of effective change. (Of course, that's my cynical voice. Tongue )

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22-03-2013, 09:07 AM
RE: Where do we go from here?
(22-03-2013 08:07 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  There seems to be but one direction - war. A big, fat, species-reducing worldwide conflagration. There's just too many stupid, greedy, short-sighted monkeys holding to outmoded paradigms for there to be any kind of effective change. (Of course, that's my cynical voice. Tongue )
More likely the war-like superpowers will face such domestic unrest that they'll choose to keep the army at home. But there will be a financial collapse probably, that or dismantling the financial industry, whichever comes first. A government might find itself in trouble to pay the soldiers and policemen. There is but one military superpower and it's already spread too thin, militarily, financially, economically... It however maintains a firm grip on the media. All global media are owned by someone. These someones are owned by two companies. One of them is Reuters, the other is owned by Reuters.

So making opinions with such media is pretty much impossible. Unless you know of any independent press. Which I do.
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