Where do we go from here?
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25-03-2013, 12:05 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
PS.

Look at it this way:

If a group of us were shipwrecked on a desert island, would we starve to death because we had no money?

Of course not. We would get busy building huts and planting crops to make our lives as comfortable as we could.

Why can we not do it now? What is the difference?

The smoke-screen of money created by those who want us to be confused so we do not see that, while we produce, they wallow in luxury without contributing.

Cut off their heads, throw out the money and live as a sane, productive civilization.

(I know, I know, easier said than done -- but at least we should know what the only possible solution is.)

Where do we go from here?

Sanity or extinction -- all else have been tried and failed, no point repeating them!
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25-03-2013, 01:44 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
Money were actually a great invention, they made a culture possible. The mechanics of money are fascinating, they accomplish organization on such a great international scale, that nothing short of worldwide web could do it. A price tag is like a pheromone signal released into a jungle, here I am, this is my price, come and get me if you can. No technology necessary.

The medium of money is like water, it connects all and gradually levels all differences, highs and lows in production costs, like waves on water calm down. Where's profit, money and businessmen pour in, where's loss, they pour out of the industry.

Capitalism releases all resources from nature and throws them at the market, as long as the price is sufficient. Then the universal signal of a price tag allows for diversity of products to be produced, in such a way that no human could organize. A hundred different materials, different technologies, different industries cooperating around the world are needed to make one product like a common pencil.

The problem with the flooded jungle of capitalism is, that it has no memory and no end to competition. No matter who proves to be successful, there will be always countless others thrown into the competition, depleting Earth with diverse, useless products because this is the way to get money and to live. Success of one has little or no value to securing others, private ownership takes care of that. It's wild, insane, unstoppable, and it works. It is certainly better than nothing. But it is hell a lot worse than RBE. Economists don't know about RBE and think that capitalism is the only way possible.
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25-03-2013, 03:59 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
Yes, I know, you are right historically speaking, Luminon. Money did serve a purpose otherwise it would not have been invented and used all over the place. So did bows and arrows. However, we are supposed to have evolved with our technology. Money now is a terrible handicap to further progress and it is time to get rid of it.

Every intelligent science fiction story I have ever read was based on the assumption of money being obsolete.

Remember Captain Picard's speech to a bunch of thawed-out Earthmen from the 20th century about how money did not mean anything any more and the real challenge was not accumulation of 'wealth' but realizing human potential?

Or James Hogan's book: "Voyage from Yesteryear" in which the human brain and human technology surpassed the need for money?

If we can't think constructively, logically, intelligently about the basic principles our civilization is based on, then we will fail to adept to 21st century reality and become extinct in the very near future. The complexity and destructive power of our technology will assure that (I suggested reading "X_Events" before).

The title of this thread was very well stated: "Where do we go from here?"

We can try one of the old methods, with minor variations and see it fail again as it always did before.

Or, we can start something new -- never tried before.

Like intelligent and logical analysis of all the options available, and choosing the one with the biggest promise for success.

Don't try to replace failed ideologies with a new ideology.

Try the common sense approach without being enamoured by yet another new ideology.
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25-03-2013, 04:33 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
(25-03-2013 03:59 PM)Zat Wrote:  Remember Captain Picard's speech to a bunch of thawed-out Earthmen from the 20th century about how money did not mean anything any more and the real challenge was not accumulation of 'wealth' but realizing human potential?


Star Treks society falls apart when examed. It is effectivly full blown Marxist Communism and would never work. 2 main issues are the Holodeck and the lack of motivation.
By lack of motivation I mean this. Everyone wants to be Capt Piccard or Geordi or any of the other main characters (notice all senior officers with the full perks that brings) Noone would want to be Midshipman second class Lou in charge of cleaning the space toilets. With no money or other compensation your average citizen is free to do anything they please with no worry about providing basic needs and that leads to major problems when it comes to the Mike Rowe Dirty jobs that make civilazation happen. Not too many peoples deepest heart of hearts dream is standing kneedeep in chickenshit or raw sewage but someone has to do it and with no motivation why would anyone choose to do that instead of whatever their passion is?
Next the major plot device that would spell the end of all civilazation The Holodeck. Real life sucks most of the time for most people and here is an escape where you can do or be anything you can immagine. Add matter replication and you'd never have to leave you could truely lose yourself in your perfect world. Within 2 generations there would be no more generations as people receede into a self-sustaining world of their own design.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-03-2013, 04:38 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
Sorry Reven -- totally unjustified and unproven assumptions.

I answered them in detail in my thread "Proposal for a New Social Contract", so I won't repeat it here.

You may wish to read the thread and challenge me there -- after you carefully read all the arguments pro and con. Smile
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25-03-2013, 05:01 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
(25-03-2013 10:47 AM)Zat Wrote:  Actually, money does not exist in reality.

It is a myth, a psychological trickery designed to induce people to act, vote, strive against their own self interest.

It is always money that causes people to vote for and elect the worst psychopaths, criminals, fools and incompetents in their midst.

That is how wars, pollution, shoddy workmanship, fraud, exploitation, parasitism are possible.

Without money involved, people would want to protect their environment, produce good quality goods, educate their children properly, look after the sick and the old, promote responsible science and technology.

When money is involved, all bets are off -- people turn into raving maniacs, selfish bastards, neurotic wrecks, merciless bullies.

Remove money from the equation and we may have a chance of avoiding extinction.

If not -- not.
(25-03-2013 12:05 PM)Zat Wrote:  PS.

Look at it this way:

If a group of us were shipwrecked on a desert island, would we starve to death because we had no money?

Of course not. We would get busy building huts and planting crops to make our lives as comfortable as we could.

Why can we not do it now? What is the difference?

The smoke-screen of money created by those who want us to be confused so we do not see that, while we produce, they wallow in luxury without contributing.

Cut off their heads, throw out the money and live as a sane, productive civilization.

(I know, I know, easier said than done -- but at least we should know what the only possible solution is.)

Where do we go from here?

Sanity or extinction -- all else have been tried and failed, no point repeating them!

I already addressed that; at least, I thought I did.

We also had this as part of the conversation at the beginning of the thread. Chicken vs. Egg. You have to keep in mind that human beings implemented a money based system, and human beings control the money based system.

You can't on one side, recognize that money is just a concept, and then on the other, act as if the concept is the root of some sort of problem.

You also can't really have very high expectations in people who, by your estimation, are "confused". People who get up every day, go to work for a relatively low wage and buy access to common, necessary resources, based on money. I know that you don't, but you do have to realize that majority of the people who you and I might claim are getting fucked over, for lifetimes, for generations, and on a large scale, really don't wake up and behave as if they are having they are, in one way or the other, being infringed upon.

Human beings were irrational from the beginning. Immorality, religion, capitalism, states and whatever else you want to point at as being root problems, came because of human nature, not the other way around.

This wasn't all conditioned. It was there previously and just got exacerbated, over time. The goal is as simple as drawing back the relationship of the individual to society to a more reasonable ratio of individualism to collectivism.

I'm not arguing that a non-capitalistic system, i.e. without money, profits, private ownership, etc., wouldn't have been a better way to do things, but you can't ignore the fact that, capitalism is what we have now, and there is a reason why that is the case. It falls perfectly in line with natural human tendencies that would be expected. There is a reason why people don't want to overthrow it, worldwide, for something different. It works. It just doesn't work well.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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25-03-2013, 05:30 PM (This post was last modified: 25-03-2013 06:18 PM by Zat.)
RE: Where do we go from here?
(25-03-2013 05:01 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  There is a reason why people don't want to overthrow it, worldwide, for something different. It works. It just doesn't work well.

Let's examine how capitalism (the 'winning' ideology) works world-wide:

1. Wars, all over the planet
2. Danger of nuclear, chemical, biological, space-based weapons (deployment or accident)
3. Environmental degradation
4. Massive levels of species extinction
5. Depletion and pollution of natural resources
6. Massive and unspeakable cruelty to animals on farms, the food industry and in laboratories
7. Mass starvation on the planet
8. Epidemics and Pandemics at ever increasing rate
9. Climate change runaway threat and ongoing negative effects
10. Massive poverty, ostentatious gluttony, increasing desperation and crime
11. Fundamentalist Religion’s resurgence
12. Millions of young brainwashed and turned into neurotic wrecks
13. Whole generations dumbed down
14. Corporate stranglehold on politics and communication
15. Meaningless, farcical ‘democracy’
16. Torture practiced openly all over the world

I know what the reality is as of today.

It doesn't mean that we can' think AHEAD!
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25-03-2013, 05:56 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
PS.

For further arguments I propose that you read the "Nature of Money" thread

at: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...e+of+money
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25-03-2013, 06:37 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
(25-03-2013 12:05 PM)Zat Wrote:  PS.

Look at it this way:

If a group of us were shipwrecked on a desert island, would we starve to death because we had no money?

Of course not. We would get busy building huts and planting crops to make our lives as comfortable as we could.

Why can we not do it now? What is the difference?

The smoke-screen of money created by those who want us to be confused so we do not see that, while we produce, they wallow in luxury without contributing.

Cut off their heads, throw out the money and live as a sane, productive civilization.

(I know, I know, easier said than done -- but at least we should know what the only possible solution is.)

Where do we go from here?

Sanity or extinction -- all else have been tried and failed, no point repeating them!

Money is a way of putting numbers to effort.

If we were stranded on a desert island you'd still have a monitory system in a sense.

ie: You go collect firewood. In return for your effort to collect firewood I will go collect water.

No money is exchanging hands in a sense but the principle is the exact same.
This is what money is, it just makes it easier to put a value on that effort.

ie: You make my burger, in return you get $13.75 an hour. I then pump your gas, in return I get $13.75 an hour.

And then we value different jobs based on numerous factors, education, experience, how we value that job, rarity etc...

The desert island would be the same.

ie: You collect wood for 12hours. I sweep the sand out of our make-shift hut for 5minutes.

We have both contributed but anyone can see that collecting wood for 12hours is a greater contribution. aka, it's not equal.

Money makes this easier. ie: You make burgers for 20hours a week, I pump gas for 40hours a week.
I would get twice the money as you because I have worked twice the hours.




People who want a system without money are delusion to what money actually is.
We will never have a system without money one way or the other.

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25-03-2013, 06:58 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
From the "Nature of Money" thread:

"Once I read a UN report that calculated the % of resources and man-hours spent on non-productive activities. It was estimating up to 90%.

This non-productive work fell in three categories:

Money-related activities/resources:

planning, printing, distributing, destroying, banking, guarding,
handling, speculating, trading, exchanging, collecting, reporting,
insuring, taxing, investigating, prosecuting, etc., etc., etc.

Fighting over distribution:
Wars, revolutions, armies, armament industries, police, crowd control,
courts, lawyers, monetary/financial/tax legislation, oversight,
lobbyists, secuirity industry/personnel, bailouts/grants/subsidies,
prisons, prison guards and industry, etc., etc., etc.

Profit-related activities:
producing in slave-economies and shipping long distance to rich
economies, fossil fuel industries and related cleanup activities,
man-made global warming and environmental cost, ill-health, hazardous
waste disposal, hanging on to obsolete technologies, killing off
innovation, etc., etc., etc.

All this waste is due to our inability to do simple arithmetic.

We waste 90% of our resources in order to control our consumption with the monetary system, without which we could spend these resources multiplying our production capacity ten-fold, producing plenty for all conceivable needs (except for the pathological kind). Without this waste no control (and money) would be required. The expression: "Penny-wise and pound-foolish" comes to mind."
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