Where do we go from here?
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25-03-2013, 07:02 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
PS.

From another thread on economics:

"I have a very simple solution:

- Stop using money
- Produce what you need
- Distribute uniformly
- Live happily ever after

No more inflation, deflation, banks, interest rates, currency supply, tax-cuts, subsidies, grants, off-shore accounts, recession, depression, deficit-financing, national debt, leveraged buyouts, credit-rating, hostile takeovers, stocks, bonds, derivatives, toxic assets, investment portfolios, and CEO compensation packages.

Big Grin

(I sort of suspect that my solution is too simple and too sane for most of us.) "
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25-03-2013, 07:27 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
(25-03-2013 06:58 PM)Zat Wrote:  From the "Nature of Money" thread:

"Once I read a UN report that calculated the % of resources and man-hours spent on non-productive activities. It was estimating up to 90%.

This non-productive work fell in three categories:

Money-related activities/resources:

planning, printing, distributing, destroying, banking, guarding,
handling, speculating, trading, exchanging, collecting, reporting,
insuring, taxing, investigating, prosecuting, etc., etc., etc.

Fighting over distribution:
Wars, revolutions, armies, armament industries, police, crowd control,
courts, lawyers, monetary/financial/tax legislation, oversight,
lobbyists, secuirity industry/personnel, bailouts/grants/subsidies,
prisons, prison guards and industry, etc., etc., etc.

Profit-related activities:
producing in slave-economies and shipping long distance to rich
economies, fossil fuel industries and related cleanup activities,
man-made global warming and environmental cost, ill-health, hazardous
waste disposal, hanging on to obsolete technologies, killing off
innovation, etc., etc., etc.

All this waste is due to our inability to do simple arithmetic.

We waste 90% of our resources in order to control our consumption with the monetary system, without which we could spend these resources multiplying our production capacity ten-fold, producing plenty for all conceivable needs (except for the pathological kind). Without this waste no control (and money) would be required. The expression: "Penny-wise and pound-foolish" comes to mind."

The level of shit in this post is beyond that of an overflowing outhouse.

Firstly, it is really clear that you are an unrealistic utopian dreamer like a lot of other forum members here.
This is why your ideas will never come true, because they fail to meet reality.

Firstly, you need to go back and read my post about what money actually is because yous till fail to grasp the concept.

Second, those 'money related activities' contribute to the gaining of more money, thus they are useful and worth while.

ie: I have a strawberry (I don't, but imagine for a second). Assume the end result is to eat as many strawberries as humanly possible. I have two choices in front of me. 1) Eat the strawberry OR 2) Plant the strawberry
You cannot plant the strawberry without soil, a pot, water, sunlight etc..

It's like a bank. You put your $100 in now to have $105 at the end of the year ($5 in interest).

Those 'money related activities' increase overall wealth just the same as if I was say plant apples and sell those apples.


Thirdly, 'fighting over money'. Of course wars are stupid, you don't need to abolish money to see this. And besides, wars have been fought over other things besides money. Religious zealots for example.

And do without courts/lawyers/police? Seriously?

Fourthly, how is it killing off innovation?? Look at the past 100 years, there has been more technological advancement then... I dunno, all the rest of man kinds history put together.
Money ENCOURAGES innovation.
Why should I develop an ipod that holds twice the number of songs if I can't profit off of it? Why should I develop a kitchen appliance that cuts cooking time in half if there's no profit for me?

Once globalization took off and markets opened and expanded and people were able to profit off of business ventures, new products etc.. etc.. then the private market went boom and expanded rapidly.

Are you saying that your life is so horrible? What with internet, TV, comfortable bed, nice food, roof over your head, don't have to plow the field by hand for 18hours a day? Do you really have it so bad because of the growth of the last 100-200 years??





Again, go back and read my last post. When you have an idea for a REALISTIC working system that doesn't use a monitory system and takes into account HUMAN BEHAVIOR then get back to me.
But right now you are fucking delusional.



Quote:- Stop using money

- Produce what you need

- Distribute uniformly

- Live happily ever after

Nobody is stopping you from buying a small patch of land in the middle of nowhere and living your days out as a hermit 100% free from capitalist influences.
But you don't do you? Nope. The fact that you are using technology to use the internet to post this is proof right there.

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25-03-2013, 07:32 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
And in regards to your next post that will no doubt spill some more theological bullshit about how money is bad but you never actually offer why or any alternatives I respond with:

You keep saying money is bad but don't offer a realistic alternative. Until you do all you're spouting off is crap.
So please step back, think for a second and present a realistic working alternative to money that doesn't use a monitory system.

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25-03-2013, 07:33 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
And in regards to your post that will respond to my last post I say:

Go back and read my last post you still have yet to "present a realistic working alternative to money that doesn't use a monitory system."

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25-03-2013, 07:36 PM
RE: Where do we go from here?
(25-03-2013 01:44 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Money were actually a great invention, they made a culture possible. The mechanics of money are fascinating, they accomplish organization on such a great international scale, that nothing short of worldwide web could do it. A price tag is like a pheromone signal released into a jungle, here I am, this is my price, come and get me if you can. No technology necessary.

The medium of money is like water, it connects all and gradually levels all differences, highs and lows in production costs, like waves on water calm down. Where's profit, money and businessmen pour in, where's loss, they pour out of the industry.

Capitalism releases all resources from nature and throws them at the market, as long as the price is sufficient. Then the universal signal of a price tag allows for diversity of products to be produced, in such a way that no human could organize. A hundred different materials, different technologies, different industries cooperating around the world are needed to make one product like a common pencil.

The problem with the flooded jungle of capitalism is, that it has no memory and no end to competition. No matter who proves to be successful, there will be always countless others thrown into the competition, depleting Earth with diverse, useless products because this is the way to get money and to live. Success of one has little or no value to securing others, private ownership takes care of that. It's wild, insane, unstoppable, and it works. It is certainly better than nothing. But it is hell a lot worse than RBE. Economists don't know about RBE and think that capitalism is the only way possible.
I'll admit that I don't quite know where we can continue going from this point. What I'll say is this, In my opinion. If you want to convince people that such an economy and philosophy is possible. Don't run to Bill Gates checkbook. Run to the psychologist and engineers. I would love to see studies, current studies or at old least studies that are both backed by peer review that show how and why humans are motivated. Especially in areas of jobs that are monotonous and/or dangerous. I would love for engineers to show different was that infrastructure could be built that would limit or eliminate the hazards of many of these jobs. Not say it but actually show it.

Frankly, outside of that it is hard to imagine how else I could be convinced outside of the evidence pointing in your favor from the above sources. Honestly, show me that or we've got nothing.

Just an outsider looking inn.
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26-03-2013, 04:53 AM (This post was last modified: 26-03-2013 05:39 AM by Zat.)
RE: Where do we go from here?
(25-03-2013 07:27 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Nobody is stopping you from buying a small patch of land in the middle of nowhere and living your days out as a hermit 100% free from capitalist influences.
But you don't do you? .
...
Actually, I do -- to the best of my abilities.

See the "Alternative lifestyle - His and Hers" thread at: http://www.rabble.ca/babble/activism/alt...hers-redux

(that was written 12 years ago -- now we are fully retired and spend some of our time trying to talk sense to people who have not thought it through yet).

See also the "Options in a Mental Institution" thread at: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...nstitution

However, I will stop trying to make sense to you, earmuff.

I know -- the simplest things are the hardest to understand for most people.

As I said before: "Humanity is like a bunch of apes fighting over a banana, smashing it to pieces during the fight so nobody can have any. If you try to explain to them the advantage of sharing and co-operation, they will beat you to a pulp".

As they say: common sense is the most uncommon sense in the universe. Big Grin

So, go ahead and enjoy your inflation, deflation, banks, interest rates, currency supply, tax-cuts, subsidies, grants, off-shore accounts, recession, depression, deficit-financing, national debt, leveraged buyouts, credit-rating, hostile takeovers, stocks, bonds, derivatives, toxic assets, investment portfolios, and CEO compensation packages.

Enjoy the world showcased by the articles I linked to in the "If you ever had any doubt about our species fucked up big time..." thread

at: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...p-big-time

Enjoy the result of "no common sense" as I described it in 16 points earlier in Post #777.

Hopefully others will say perceptive and intelligent things on the subject.

Our 'conversation' now is over, as far as I am concerned.

No doubt you will continue it one-sided Wink
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26-03-2013, 06:26 AM (This post was last modified: 26-03-2013 06:30 AM by earmuffs.)
RE: Where do we go from here?
I was riding to the grocery store today when I noticed the public bus transport (I notice them all the time, they're the bain of my existence but w/e). There's cables and shit set up so the bus route can be done all electronically (the buses run on overhead cables which deliver electricity to the bus to power it).
How this is relevant is because this is done to save money. Instead of fueling the buses on diesel which is expensive they are run on electricity which is comparatively cheaper (especially for something that uses a lot like a bus route).
This is a prime example of the type of innovation that free markets and capitalism encourage.
What is the point in building the required infrastructure to run the buses on electricity if they could run on diesel for free? Why bother? You wouldn't.

As I have said before you are unrealistic. You spout shit but have NOTHING to back up what you are saying or even bother to present a counter argument to a monitory system because you know you can't.

Quote:Humanity is like a bunch of apes fighting over a banana, smashing it to pieces during the fight so nobody can have any.

So? What is your practical solution to this?
Get rid of money? That doesn't solve human greed and behavior.
Take your desert island analogy, no money, but if you collect wood for 12hours and build a fire and make dinner, then you are going to complain when all I do is sweep the hut out for half a minute and say we both contributed equally. That's human nature.


Again, less spouting rubbish and more practical solutions because nobody is going to take your old ass seriously until you do.

edit: ps: You are using a computer (or phone), with internet (which suggest a home more then a tent in the woods), both, especially the computer, are products of the progress of the past 100 years.

Question: Do we live more comfortable lives then people in our situation 100-200 years ago?
ie: Washing cloths. Right now I take my dirty cloths, shove them in the washing machine, press a couple buttons (put in some powder) and walk away. 100-200 years ago I'd be down at the river smashing my shirts against a rock for hours.

How about instead of ending the conversation you stop being a stupid fuck and answer some of these questions or present some workable solutions?

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26-03-2013, 06:30 AM
RE: Where do we go from here?
...
Forgive him, folks -- he is only 21 -- he will grow out of it!

Took me a long time to figure things out -- it is a very complicated world and it takes time to see the structure and pattern.
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26-03-2013, 06:32 AM
RE: Where do we go from here?
Or you know, you could stop dancing around the questions and actually answer them if you're as smart as you claim.

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26-03-2013, 06:33 AM (This post was last modified: 26-03-2013 06:37 AM by Zat.)
RE: Where do we go from here?
...

Smile
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