Where does Liberty Reside?
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13-04-2012, 09:30 AM
Where does Liberty Reside?
Taking a conversation I have been having with a theist, I thought I would put out there essentially his original question: Where do Atheist believe our "inalienable liberties" come from? Are they granted from the State, Given to us by social norm/customs, intrinsic to our nature, or what?
I know what my answer is (intrinsic/necessary to life) but I am interested to see what you think.
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13-04-2012, 09:36 AM
RE: Where does Liberty Reside?
Here...
[Image: 220px-National_Park_Service_9-11_Statue_...C_fire.jpg]

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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13-04-2012, 05:54 PM
RE: Where does Liberty Reside?
(13-04-2012 09:30 AM)vtgadfly Wrote:  Taking a conversation I have been having with a theist, I thought I would put out there essentially his original question: Where do Atheist believe our "inalienable liberties" come from? Are they granted from the State, Given to us by social norm/customs, intrinsic to our nature, or what?
I know what my answer is (intrinsic/necessary to life) but I am interested to see what you think.
Define 'inalienable' and 'liberty'. No, i'm not being a troll.

Is freedom of movement, non confinement, a right? I would think that would fit in most peoples definition. Now, what if the person is a criminal and must be confined for years.. is that persons liberty forfeit? Most would say yes. We have grey areas of things considered "liberties", as well as liberties that can be taken away - and when can they be taken away? And who do we rely on to say which are liberties, which ones can be taken away, and for what reason?

I'd very much prefer if a learned body, of my peers, were able to debate this and base their decisions on evidence and reason.
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13-04-2012, 06:37 PM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2012 08:56 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Where does Liberty Reside?
The concept of liberty in the Declaration of Independence came from the French Enlightenment. The theist was trying to trap you into admitting that without a statement, such as occurs in the Declaration of Independence, ("endowed by their creator" .. bla bla bla), there is no human liberty. That is bullshit.

The statement in the Declaration is simply a culturally dependant string of words, which need translating for 2012. Today, a human would say somethng like, "our deepest held values, hold that .... bla bla bla" ... or "fundamental to our value systems are" or "the best in us requires that " ... no god is necessary. They are not "granted" by anyone. They don't "come from" anywhere. Being human "obtains" them.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, from the foundation of the UN :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_D...s#Preamble
http://chnm.gmu.edu/revolution/chap3a.html
And Erx, buddy, your statue has the divine gift of bilocation.
http://www.french-at-a-touch.com/Statue_...ux,_France
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http...As&dur=266

Einstein

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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