Where does church money go?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-06-2012, 07:45 PM
RE: Where does church money go?
Certainly at the church I spent most of my religious life at the pastor could not have supported his family without also having the income of his spouse to depend on. He works long hours and earns his pay cheque.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-06-2012, 01:12 AM
RE: Where does church money go?
(07-06-2012 10:03 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  What Ghost said.

Also, most churches (mine included), show a weekly budget in the Sunday bulletin the describe where each cent goes. On major purchases or spendings, there is a church wide vote.

It's disingenuous to label churches as corruption machines because I would say the majority of them operate under honest standards.

Our church's money goes to payroll, maintenance, missions, literature for the church, ministries, and outreach.

My apologies,I forgot some churches do this now but do you really expect me to believe that if they raised,say 40 grand on a sunday,they all actually spend the whole thing on a charity?
If it was so,most of the worlds problem would be over and exactly how many times are churches supposed to be reinnovated?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-06-2012, 01:22 AM
RE: Where does church money go?
(07-06-2012 07:15 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(07-06-2012 03:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  I was wondering when you would chime in.

The lavish lifestyles of some of the televangelists would qualify as corruption, no?
The lavish lifestyles of MOST of the televangelists could qualify as corruption. My point is, televangelists probably make up 1/2 a percent of the amount of clergy and their churches. To say this small sample set is corrupt is probably a plausible speculation. To say that all churches are corrupt is not.

Fuck, if I had been a corrupt pastor, I'd still be pastoring. I guarantee the majority of pastors are not paid well.

You get it,its not a matter of corruption,the pastors just have to be paid better why have this poor guy work so hard and not expect him to have material wishes.Even if it was a 'calling' is this guy not human,does he not want to live like his fellow worshippers and what exactly makes the likes of Joyce Meyer,Joel Osteen and all those other televangelists so fucking high and mighty.
But still,these corrupt pastors still dont live that lavish life even after taking a bit of it so all that money that remains is still unaccounted for.
And for the last time can somebody tell me why churches need reinnovation and expansion money all the time...just build a big ass churdh to begin with,Right?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-06-2012, 05:34 AM
RE: Where does church money go?
That is a open question. If you are talking about my favorite church to hate (the Catholic Church) it goes to the Vatican. Then the Church skims the top and hordes the money, then they make deals with the Mafia through the Vatican Bank. That is the most corrupt church on the planet. The Vatican has more money than any country in Europe. Something is wrong with that. Yet people still are starving in the whole world. Makes me wonder about that Nazi Pope.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a
free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their
political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their
own purpose. ~ Thomas Jefferson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes N.E.OhioAtheist's post
08-06-2012, 09:22 AM
RE: Where does church money go?
Hey, Erxomai.

Quote:Uh...come on, Ghost. Are you really willing to stand behind this statement? I doubt very highly that it's endemic to EVERY hierarchical organiZation and your last sentence only makes you look like you're saying because we can't prove that corruption ever took place, let's just assume churches are guilty anyway because I don't like what they stand for.

You may be confusing me with someone else. I'm not singling out churches. Pretty far from it. And I feel that suggesting that I'm out to get churches because 'I don't like what they stand for' is a bit of a mischracterisation of me.

I do stand behind my statement quite comfortably. Every hierarchical organisation deals with corruption.

What I was saying is that there is more corruption in the world than is identified and punished. Which is true. Many people get away with it. If there was a 100% conviction rate, why would anyone engage in it? That's why I suggested that all we know is that more corruption occurs than we know about. That it happens, as far as I'm concerned, is incontrovertible.

I'm not blaming any one person of corruption. I'm saying that hierarchy and corruption are inseparable. Hierarchy facilitates and incentivises corruption by its very nature. I confidently state that as fact.

I agree with you, the majority of clergy make SFA. And a whole mess of them aint corrupt. I'd like to think it's most, but I have no reason to believe that. But for sure there is corruption occurring in the organisation. To assume that a given organisation is somehow exempt from corruption, to me, seems naïve, if not fanciful. Sort of a hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil kind of thing.

Just take note though that I am not ragging on religion. I'm ragging on hierarchy. I don't care if we're talking about churches, banks, corporations, governments, police forces, NGOs, unions, charities, armies, whatever. It's all the same to me.

Corruption is not a problem of hierarchical systems, it's a feature.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-06-2012, 09:34 AM
RE: Where does church money go?
The vatican started releasing their finance records to show that they weren't at rich as people thought they were. I think they only came out of debt a few years ago.

But I was looking for the article and all I could find were the ones about money laundering. Sucks doesn't it.

Sapere aude! Have courage to use your own understanding!
Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.


Enlightenment is liberating.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-06-2012, 10:20 AM
RE: Where does church money go?
Hey Ghost,
I get what you're saying and I know that you're not a religion basher. That's why I was surprised by your seemingly all inclusive comment. I still think it assumes the worst to say corruption is endemic to all hierarchical organizations, but if your intent is to mean that it is a possible problem that every organization deals with, then I would agree. Just like it is a possible problem that every time I see a beautiful woman I'd like to see her breasts. Doesn't mean I'm going to do anything about it. Doesn't mean most churches are corrupt. And that's all I have to say about that.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Erxomai's post
08-06-2012, 10:43 AM
RE: Where does church money go?
Hey, Erxomai.

My intent isn't to say it's a possible problem. My intent is to say that it will be present, without fail, in every hierarchical organisation.

No property of religion makes it either more or less prone to corruption. I am not shocked by the idea that corruption affects churches (or perhaps better stated as religious organisations) than I am that if affects investment banks, or municipal governments, or NGOs, or the Canadian Forces.

It's important to note that while an individual parish may be free from corruption, it is part of a larger organisation. I want to be clear, the organisation invites, facilitates and incentivises corruption.

Corruption has been here for thousands of years. One can assume it's a string of coincidence, or one can assume that there is a mechanism in place that breeds it. I believe the latter.

I don't think it's assuming the worst any more than assuming my heart will stop beating one day is assuming the worst. It's just a reality of the system. Death isn't a problem of my system, it's a feature.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-06-2012, 06:39 AM
RE: Where does church money go?
(07-06-2012 07:15 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Fuck, if I had been a corrupt pastor, I'd still be pastoring.

Obviously, you were doing it wrong. Tongue

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes houseofcantor's post
10-06-2012, 07:33 PM
RE: Where does church money go?
I'd actually argue that the Catholic Church is lest corrupt than most other organizations since there is nowhere for the money to go. If a priest were putting 10 million dollars into his pocket what would he do with it. he can't own a house, he is given a car, he has allowances for a maid and a cook. it's not like he can drive around in a Ferrari and hope no one notices.

Also I always hate it when people call out the Vatican for it's finery. It's called art and most of it is hundreds of years old, they are not (for the most part) making brand new scepters for the pope to use. Also people pay to see it. I can't help but think that if the Vatican sold the Sistine chapel to a private collector, it would not go over very well with a lot of people.

Another thing is that almost all church property is valued at 1 dollar since it cannot be sold. remember the Churches first priority is to the faithful and if people are going to church you can't really close it down.

and finally 2.6 billion dollars have been paid out in the US to victims of sex abuse

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: