Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
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23-11-2016, 10:04 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 03:53 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 12:33 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Do you accept that we can look at the acts you mentioned (slavery and child rape) and determine to some extent the damage they cause to individual people and society as a whole?

Yes, what I don't accept is that looking at damage is what tells us right from wrong on any sense that it becomes more than ''just my opinion of what I like the world to be''.

No.

A damaged individual (physically and/or emotionally) is less likely to survive and is more likely to be a drain on society. In short there are measurable, demonstrable evidence that this is negative, both to society and to the individual.

The more damaged individuals, the more of a drain on society. A society that promotes causing harm and creating damaged people is going to have a greater chance of failure. This is also measurable and demonstrable.

These two items are not opinion. They are fact.

These two items alone justify in saying that slavery and child rape are wrong. Not in a cosmic sense, but in a sense that they are harmful to society and individuals.

(23-11-2016 03:53 PM)Velvet Wrote:  You will not be determining they are wrong, you will just be determining that their views are not based on extent of damage to individual and society.

See above. There is nothing random about what I stated.

(23-11-2016 03:53 PM)Velvet Wrote:  As long as they guy things this is NOT what matters for determining what is right from wrong, you have no way of making it be, you rely on people having the same opinion that you have so that you can show that your opinion its valid...
Understand?

Welcome to the real world. No god. No rule book. Society is based on people with similar ideas congregating together. The majority opinions tend to carry more weight then the minority.

Guess what? Sometimes the majority fuck things up. Notice also that those societies that promote negative aspects have more problems? Notice that many of them are no longer around?

Understand?

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24-11-2016, 01:25 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 08:40 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Would you agree we cannot judge Hitler's actions or rape, slavery and genocide as being wrong or evil? (because while we could use mechanisms to divide as moral or immoral actions based on their society morality, that still wouldn`t give us a right/wrong?)

Do you think the universe has an opinion about one monkey's heinous crimes against a whole lot of other monkeys at some arbitrary point in the history of a dust-speck whirling around a larger speck in the middle of fucking nowhere?

Right and wrong are social constructions. They do not exist without society. Opinions change over what is right or wrong.

In the book I'm reading at the moment, the author talks about the Code of Hammurabi, the first written legal system, and how it asserts that it is universally true that people are divided into certain classes, and contrasts that with the American declaration of independence, which asserts that all people are equal. Both are examples of what the author calls "Imagined orders" - things that are true because large numbers of people buy into them, and not because they're externally true in the universe.

Quote:We believe in a particular order not because it is true, but because believing in it enables us to cooperate better and forge a better society. Imagined orders are not evil conspiracies or useless mirages. Rather, they are the only way large numbers of humans can cooperate effectively. Bear in mind though that Hammurabi might have defended his principle of heirarchy using the same logic: 'I know that superiors, commoners and slaves are not inherently different kinds of people. But if we believe that they are, it will enable us to create a stable and prosperous society.'
-- Yuval Noah Harari - Sapiens.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-11-2016, 01:41 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 09:26 AM)Velvet Wrote:  So I will might have to learn how to feel again... because I cannot feel angry to child rapists (anymore)... because they are not wrong, because the wrong does not exist.

They are breaking a law, and that's not reason to hate them or despise them (because we too break laws all the time, not only traffic small laws, but also "social" laws, and/or laws/codes/regulations of our jobs whenever we feel they are not really important).

Surely we can still confine them to protect others, but we would not be justified to hate them, and I'm the kind of guy who would feel bad with myself everytime I notice I'm feeling or doing something that I'm not rationally supported to do or feel.

Or you can just be cheerfully irrational and hate them anyway Wink Personally I can't say I hold any particular grudge even against murderers and rapists. Also, I tend to think people who perpetrate such crimes (what defines a crime? It is against the law!) are usually from shitty personal backgrounds and such, so it makes it hard to hate them. I prefer that they are, as you say, "confined to protect others" - or the Norwegian model of the prison system where they receive humane treatment and therapy, and may be at some point reintroduced to society.

Quote:It was already way too hard to learn how to not hate my ex-wife for decieving me... the evidence of deception being a common practice on nature all over the place, in all sorts of animals, saying me I was wrong, and that I should let it go... that she was just being human, which is an animal nonetheless... that it was not really reasonable to hate her, as I wouldn't suddenly start hating orchid mantises would I?

And now i'm supposed to watch a child rapist on TV on not judge him... I'm supposed to "let go" the genocides on the bible because they are not wrong...

It amazes me that you guys cannot see how terrifying and hard that could be.

Who said you should stop hating anyone? If you want a rational basis for hate I'm afraid that's where you're gonna come up short.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-11-2016, 02:40 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 03:46 PM)Velvet Wrote:  I will try to spell it out for you:

I'm NOT defending that Craig is right on his view of morality, I'm only defending that he IS right when (and only when) he says:

Relative morality (that we all agree until now, and does not fucking matter if Craig does, but happens that he doesn`t) is not coherent with judgment of moral value

Because it makes your view of morality as a opinion witch would be a composite of natural and anthropological stuff, and this, not being absolute, magical and not even particularly insightful does not equip us to judge the very same thing of any other given person.

How the fuck you are going to use your morality to judge for other morality if they are relative?

Is like saying Christianity is wrong because Islam is right, having your own unsupported relative opinion of what you feel its right, DOES NOT EQUIP YOU, to judge other's unsupported relative opinions of what they feel its right.

That's the only thing that I'm saying that he is right.

But he's wrong. As a human, I am a tale of three simulations.

Simulation of mind in brain
Simulation of mind of another in mind (Empathy)
Simulation of future in mind (Predictive modeling)

That's the absolute in this equation. We don't have "morals," we run a program which generates morality. Everybody wants to think they know an absolute but they're not running the simulations. The mind is the only equipment we're got.

To think there is some other undefined equipment making absolute moral judgements ain't really thinking. Tongue

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24-11-2016, 02:46 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 10:04 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  A damaged individual (physically and/or emotionally) is less likely to survive and is more likely to be a drain on society. In short there are measurable, demonstrable evidence that this is negative, both to society and to the individual.

The more damaged individuals, the more of a drain on society. A society that promotes causing harm and creating damaged people is going to have a greater chance of failure. This is also measurable and demonstrable.

These two items are not opinion. They are fact.
Yes, I know, but that's doesn't point to what's right and wrong on any sense, just points to society survival and efficiency.

One could also argue that using that as a moral ground would lead us to pragmatic atrocities like killing retarded people because they are a drain on the society or some other level of insensitive behavior just because ''its measurable to be negative''.

Quote:These two items alone justify in saying that slavery and child rape are wrong. Not in a cosmic sense, but in a sense that they are harmful to society and individuals.
There two items alone justify in saying that they are harmful to society and individuals, your conclusion that they are wrong because of that does not follow from logic, we have no logical reason to presuppose harmful practices are wrong, they are just demonstrably not the most efficient way to ensure survival in society.

Quote:Welcome to the real world. No god. No rule book. Society is based on people with similar ideas congregating together. The majority opinions tend to carry more weight then the minority.

Guess what? Sometimes the majority fuck things up. Notice also that those societies that promote negative aspects have more problems? Notice that many of them are no longer around?
Why should the opinion of the majority mean anything at all? The earth wasn't flat at the time when everyone thought it was...

If everyone thinks something that's unsupported just because ''feels right'' to everyone, I say fuck them all, they are all holding an unsupported set or beliefs, the same apply for morality...

If the right and wrong are decided by majority of opinion at any given time, is the same to say they not exist at all, and saying that something is right or wrong is stupid.

Do you at least understand that I'm not disagreeing with you on the way you thought I did?

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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24-11-2016, 02:46 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 06:54 AM)Velvet Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 06:45 AM)morondog Wrote:  You want a universal basis for morality? There is none. The most one can say is that there's stuff that society as a whole generally endorses or generally repudiates. That is subject to change though. In earlier times marriage between races and homosexuality were regarded as heinous crimes, now they're seen as OK. Torturing enemy combatants and killing them horribly was seen as basic common sense, now it's seen as barbaric.

I fail to see how belief in some deity resolves anything with respect to morality. Plenty of people kill in the name of a loving God.

No, I want to know if it is possible to have any basis to judge or evaluate any act as good or bad, right or wrong, given everything that you just said.

And if its not possible then, what we supposed to do with our intuition about evil acts like rape, slavery, racism... discard it all because its just as supported as yesterday's "slavery is right"?

Is it theoretically possible to have an objective morality along a particular scale? Yes.

Who or what determines that scale? By what measuring stick do we use for our objective comparisons? That choice, whatever it is, will be subjective.

Many people are fond of 'harm and suffering' as a rubric, with actions that cause more needless suffering being less moral, and actions that mitigate harm and suffering being more moral. We can make philosophical arguments for and against using 'harm and suffering' as our rubric, the potential harm and suffering caused by our actions is limited by our knowledge, and the philosophical lengths that we agree to apply causal ownership. Nothing about that debate is objective.

So of course any theists who claims to have just such an objective scale is doing nothing but declaring his preferred subjective scale 'objective' by fiat and a false appeal to authority.

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24-11-2016, 02:51 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(24-11-2016 02:40 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 03:46 PM)Velvet Wrote:  I will try to spell it out for you:

I'm NOT defending that Craig is right on his view of morality, I'm only defending that he IS right when (and only when) he says:

Relative morality (that we all agree until now, and does not fucking matter if Craig does, but happens that he doesn`t) is not coherent with judgment of moral value

Because it makes your view of morality as a opinion witch would be a composite of natural and anthropological stuff, and this, not being absolute, magical and not even particularly insightful does not equip us to judge the very same thing of any other given person.

How the fuck you are going to use your morality to judge for other morality if they are relative?

Is like saying Christianity is wrong because Islam is right, having your own unsupported relative opinion of what you feel its right, DOES NOT EQUIP YOU, to judge other's unsupported relative opinions of what they feel its right.

That's the only thing that I'm saying that he is right.

But he's wrong. As a human, I am a tale of three simulations.

Simulation of mind in brain
Simulation of mind of another in mind (Empathy)
Simulation of future in mind (Predictive modeling)

That's the absolute in this equation. We don't have "morals," we run a program which generates morality. Everybody wants to think they know an absolute but they're not running the simulations. The mind is the only equipment we're got.

To think there is some other undefined equipment making absolute moral judgments ain't really thinking. Tongue

HoC, you just tried to go against something which is exactly what I said I'm not talking about on the very quote that you made.

You point about 3 absolutes in interesting tho and I will respond to it later when I get to work.

(You too morondog, I will answer when I get there)

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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24-11-2016, 02:55 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(24-11-2016 02:46 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  That choice, whatever it is, will be subjective.

People becoming objects "is scary as fuck" to the objective psychopath in the audience. Meta scary. Evil_monster

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24-11-2016, 02:57 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(24-11-2016 02:51 AM)Velvet Wrote:  HoC, you just tried to go against something which is exactly what I said I'm not talking about on the very quote that you made.

...well you were yelling. Ain't nobody to blame but you. Tongue

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24-11-2016, 03:45 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(24-11-2016 02:57 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(24-11-2016 02:51 AM)Velvet Wrote:  HoC, you just tried to go against something which is exactly what I said I'm not talking about on the very quote that you made.

...well you were yelling. Ain't nobody to blame but you. Tongue

No I was not, I was trying to make it crystal clear to avoid the missunderstanding that you are making.

Consider reading it again please before adding anything else.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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