Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
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24-11-2016, 07:20 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(24-11-2016 07:11 AM)Velvet Wrote:  Yes, I also think they do not exist, that's why I'm defending that we shouldn't judge if we want to be coherent with our skeptical stance when we inquire people for their rational justification for holding their beliefs and opinions, we can do so without being hypocritical.

You can do whatever you like Smile Don't be telling me what I "should" do. a. Not your concern. b. I don't count myself a hypocrite. If you want to make that assertion then some vague shit about moral relativity won't cut it.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-11-2016, 07:27 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(24-11-2016 04:17 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Yabut... inherent in this argument is the hubristic notion that humans and societies matter.

Tongue

Yes. They matter to us. Beyond that, no.

I am not arguing for Objective Morality.

I am saying that Subjective Morality is all that we have.

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24-11-2016, 07:28 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 08:40 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 08:32 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Why do you keep trying to reduce what I say down into me saying that people do it for "right" or "wrong" or "good" or "evil" reasons as if there is some sort of moral standard by which to judge these actions?

Because this is my question all along...

How can we judge right from wrong actions, good from evil actions, if there's no moral standard by which to judge these actions?

It seems you actually agree with me then, that we can't?

Would you agree we cannot judge Hitler's actions or rape, slavery and genocide as being wrong or evil? (because while we could use mechanisms to divide as moral or immoral actions based on their society morality, that still wouldn`t give us a right/wrong?)

No, we don't agree and I've already explained how one can judge others from a moral standpoint.

We can judge Hitler's actions as immoral just like we can judge the actions of slave owners in the 1800's of America as immoral. That's because we can judge their actions based on 1) our current moral understanding, 2) a perspective that existed at the time that they didn't fully consider (from the position of the slave or the Jew).

You've still not explained to me how humans aren't equipped to judge, you just continue to assert it. Do you think that one can only judge if there is an objective standard which they are judging against? If so, that's hogwash.

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24-11-2016, 07:47 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(24-11-2016 04:32 AM)Velvet Wrote:  What rational justification we have, to judge those moral ideas as worst than ours instead of just different?

I would submit that it may not be useful to declare something bad off-hand, but we should reason through why we disagree or agree to which options are better in a given situation.

But of course, if you've spent any time on this forum, we're always getting people on here to tell us exactly what is moral by their "objective" standard.

So I'll dismiss the fuck out of that!

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24-11-2016, 07:52 AM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2016 08:23 AM by unfogged.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(24-11-2016 07:11 AM)Velvet Wrote:  No I'm not implying that, I saying that using everything we just agreed on I would feel intelectually dishonest if I WERE, to judge other's morals opinion as wrong (as I said).

You are not intellectually dishonest to judge another person's opinions against your own standards so long as you aren't claiming that your standards are objective or absolute.

The key is having a rational basis for your standards and being willing to revise your standards if others can convince you that their standards are superior in some way.

Quote:I'm a clown because I'm looking for logical justification for things before I feel comfortable in doing them? why would I be?

The question I have is what logical justification is required beyond necessity. We live in a society and that means we need guidelines for getting along with each other if we prefer not to descend into total anarchy. That's all the justification I need to have opinions on what is moral and what isn't.

Yes, it is a personal opinion that total anarchy would be worse to live under. I base that on seeing cases in the world and throughout history that approached that type of "society". The universe may not care about it, but I do.

Quote:Yes, I also think they do not exist, that's why I'm defending that we shouldn't judge if we want to be coherent with our skeptical stance when we inquire people for their rational justification for holding their beliefs and opinions, we can do so without being hypocritical.

There is nothing hypocritical about judging according to personal standards and still being skeptical. My standards are based on my evaluation of the evidence as to what actions lead to a more stable, flourishing society which gives everybody the best chance of enjoying life. If you can show me that a particular conclusion I hold is less optimal than another I will reconsider that. That is the best I can do.

Somebody else may have opinions that are based on another goal. In that case I will likely [consider] them to often be immoral according to my standards and they will return the favor. So what? We've already agreed that there is no absolute morality and that it is relative. Neither side is being hypocritical as long as they are consistent in their judgements within their own framework.

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24-11-2016, 07:59 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(24-11-2016 07:02 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Well, we can. We can judge their actions under any number of different rubrics, in some they'll come out ahead, in many others they'll fall woefully behind. You can use a rubric to get an objective answer in principle, even if not always in practice. But the selection and implementation of such rubrics is entirely subjective, and dependent upon group consensus; as indeed all social constructs are by their very nature.
Yes, but that wouldn't still mean anything, I can say that Red is objectively the worst color, according to my color favoritism table that rates colors in level of subjective preference.

While you can (and I agree with you) say that if everyone in the world agrees with me, I can probably lead people to repaint every red building another colors, or maybe even make a case for killing people for using the red color whenever other color is available.

But that still wouldn't change the fact that (even if everyone in the whole world accepts and agrees with my color rating table) that my table or that the color red is anything really special, is just a wtf color preference table, with a wtf rating of colors...

Sure I could say that evolution leads us to perceive red as bad because *insert some random stuff* to try to make a point for a ground, but would this change anything?

And most importantly, my point is that If someone else's say he loves red as a color and wants to paint his house red, I shouldn't be able to say (just because I have a consensus over my table) that he is wrong.

Even if I have the power to get him killed for speaking up against the law of "no one should even mention the possibility of red being anything different from the worst color"

(24-11-2016 06:02 AM)EK Wrote:  Within the confines of social constructs, they are. A lone person who believes with his whole heart that the country belong to them by right matters not if they're the only one that agrees with them. But if enough people do agree, now they're a monarch.
I would argue that he is not, its just perspective, like money doesn't really stops being just paper, despite the value that we infuse simbolicaly to it, it never becomes valuable on its own.

If someone says he doesn't value money we shouldn't be able to say he is wrong.

I think we could actually make our debate a lot clearer.

I think that we can't judge someone who is acting on his personal opinion as wrong using only our own personal opinion as a metter, even if more people happen to agree with us.

We would only be able to judge him if we use some higher standard (which doesn't exist), in case of science, we trust well made tests results more than we trust hyphothesis, we trust more what evidence points than what our personal intuition points.

I cannot say your intuition is wrong because my intuition is against yours, and shouldn't matter if everyone else has the same intuition as me.

Why on morallity that would be different?

Quote:I say you can. Challenge other belief systems, challenge your own. Things don't get better* if people don't try. Simply reducing everything to impotent moral relativity is pointless. If you think something is immoral, question why, and sort it out. Challenge others, and see if your reasoning stacks up. If you value reason (which too is a subjective valuation of sorts), then make the case as to why rationality and reason is moral, and do your best to convince those who disagree with you. Don't cede the moral high-ground unless someone else can convince you otherwise. In a society that favors debate over bloodshed, it's the best way to make moral progress**.

*I would argue there's no "better", only different, and ask why X would be better than Y, and you would say, according to the table which I picked subjectively.

And I would respond: Sorry but that's not enought to say what's better, your table its not necessarily right, and we know that, so why should we use your table? and not any other? in face of this, shouldn't we suspend judgment?

**See above.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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24-11-2016, 08:05 AM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2016 08:27 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(24-11-2016 07:52 AM)unfogged Wrote:  You are not intellectually dishonest to judge another person's opinions against your own standards so long as you aren't claiming that your standards are objective or absolute.

The key is having a rational basis for your standards and being willing to revise your standards if others can convince you that their standards are superior in some way.

Shit, that solves it.

You are completely right unfogged.

The key lies in "not claiming" or even thinking to yourself that your standards are necessarily right, and be honestly willing to consider the other standards with the same level of consideration and critical eye you use in your own set, that's what allows you to judge and inquire that they do the same...

Which is, stupidly enought, the same process we use with beliefs...

Fuck... how I didn't think about that.

I was fucking blind... thank you unfogged.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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24-11-2016, 08:21 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(24-11-2016 07:59 AM)Velvet Wrote:  Yes, but that wouldn't still mean anything, I can say that Red is objectively the worst color, according to my color favoritism table that rates colors in level of subjective preference.

Not to prolong this but that's a bit of a pet peeve with me... saying that you prefer one color over another, or the taste of one food over another, or anything along those lines is not a moral judgement. Unless you can show that there are consequences to a particular choice that affect things within the framework you are using to make moral decisions then they are just subjective choices. Personal preferences and moral choices may both be subjective but that doesn't make them equivalent. You can't be immoral for liking the color blue, only for what actions you will take to ensure that you see it.

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24-11-2016, 08:25 AM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2016 08:30 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(24-11-2016 08:21 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(24-11-2016 07:59 AM)Velvet Wrote:  Yes, but that wouldn't still mean anything, I can say that Red is objectively the worst color, according to my color favoritism table that rates colors in level of subjective preference.

Not to prolong this but that's a bit of a pet peeve with me...

I had to look up "pet peeve", that's ok you can correct me all your want.

I was really concerned that I was going to be trapped by my own will of being intelectually honest to the point I couldn't ever allow myself to judge anyone who harms/harmed me or others...

... For once, I'm really glad I was wrong

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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24-11-2016, 08:29 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(24-11-2016 08:05 AM)Velvet Wrote:  Which is, stupidly enought, the same process we use with beliefs...

Fuck... how I didn't think about that.

I was fucking blind... thank you unfogged.

Shit, I came here for an argument...





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