Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
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10-12-2016, 05:44 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(10-12-2016 05:23 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(10-12-2016 03:41 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Why is it wrong to cause harm to other animals/people?

When Europeans first colonized North America, they did a great deal of harm to the indigenous peoples, but the Europeans benefited greatly.

Why was it wrong for the Europeans to do harm to the indigenous?

Similarly, when I kill a deer, it no doubt harms the deer, but I get the benefit of acquiring free-range, organic, lean protein. Is it wrong for me to kill a deer? If so, why?

Because of a sense of empathy.

Sometimes some people feel empathy, and sometimes some people feel disdain.

It sounds to me like you are saying that because sometimes some people feel empathy, that empathy should be valued.

This makes no sense to me, but assuming you're right, then wouldn't it also follow that because sometimes some people feel disdain, that disdain should be valued.

You see, you really aren't making an argument at all. You're just saying "because empathy."

Well, I will counter your argument with "because disdain".

If you really want to get a better grasp on what I'm trying to explain to you, please watch this vid.



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10-12-2016, 05:44 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(10-12-2016 04:46 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(10-12-2016 04:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  As an atheists...
Facepalm
(10-12-2016 04:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Atheist tend to frame it as matter of harm....they're
Facepalm

That dead horse has to be beaten down into a rancid, jello-like puddle of chunky slime.

Like going all Gallagher on a big ol' puffy roadkill deer....

A wet, tearing, sssshhhpplaaatttt... THUD

Oh look, an eyeball went sailing by.

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11-12-2016, 03:54 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(10-12-2016 05:44 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(10-12-2016 04:46 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Facepalm
Facepalm

That dead horse has to be beaten down into a rancid, jello-like puddle of chunky slime.

Like going all Gallagher on a big ol' puffy roadkill deer....

A wet, tearing, sssshhhpplaaatttt... THUD

Oh look, an eyeball went sailing by.

Being someone with a PhD from a "prestigious" university, he should know the difference between singular and plural, particuarly if hes trolling a whole forum whose name is related to the word(s) he is abusing.
Wasnt me bragging about my degree and general intellectual superiority, ya know.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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11-12-2016, 05:00 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(11-12-2016 03:54 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(10-12-2016 05:44 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  That dead horse has to be beaten down into a rancid, jello-like puddle of chunky slime.

Like going all Gallagher on a big ol' puffy roadkill deer....

A wet, tearing, sssshhhpplaaatttt... THUD

Oh look, an eyeball went sailing by.

Being someone with a PhD from a "prestigious" university, he should know the difference between singular and plural, particuarly if hes trolling a whole forum whose name is related to the word(s) he is abusing.
Wasnt me bragging about my degree and general intellectual superiority, ya know.

No no, Tommy's the one who worked as some kind of office-flunky paper pusher at a pharmacy company and thinks that makes him an expert on what science is. As far as I'm aware he hasn't claimed to have a PhD.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-12-2016, 05:13 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(11-12-2016 05:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-12-2016 03:54 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Being someone with a PhD from a "prestigious" university, he should know the difference between singular and plural, particuarly if hes trolling a whole forum whose name is related to the word(s) he is abusing.
Wasnt me bragging about my degree and general intellectual superiority, ya know.

No no, Tommy's the one who worked as some kind of office-flunky paper pusher at a pharmacy company and thinks that makes him an expert on what science is. As far as I'm aware he hasn't claimed to have a PhD.

(27-07-2016 09:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  We didn't get around to reading him, in my advanced degree program at the prestigious Patriot University of Del Norte. We spent much of our accelerated Doctorate program studying the theologian Jack T. Chick instead.

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11-12-2016, 06:22 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(10-12-2016 05:44 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(10-12-2016 05:23 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Because of a sense of empathy.

Sometimes some people feel empathy, and sometimes some people feel disdain.

It sounds to me like you are saying that because sometimes some people feel empathy, that empathy should be valued.

This makes no sense to me, but assuming you're right, then wouldn't it also follow that because sometimes some people feel disdain, that disdain should be valued.

You see, you really aren't making an argument at all. You're just saying "because empathy."

Well, I will counter your argument with "because disdain".

If you really want to get a better grasp on what I'm trying to explain to you, please watch this vid.




Empathy is a subjective value and it can be preferred over lack of empathy.

You are free to argue otherwise, I will not agree to your preference.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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11-12-2016, 06:54 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 06:54 AM)Velvet Wrote:  [...] No, I want to know if it is possible to have any basis to judge or evaluate any act as good or bad, right or wrong, given everything that you just said.

This question has already been debated a gazillion times on these forums in one way or another. I suggest you check out http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...als+ethics or http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...als+ethics or http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...als+ethics before asking it yet again. Thanks.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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11-12-2016, 10:02 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(11-12-2016 06:22 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Empathy is a subjective value and it can be preferred over lack of empathy.

(23-11-2016 10:53 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You can form a rational basis for right and wrong from denoting harm that is caused by certain actions. This would be external to individual opinion.

So I can assert that god drowning everyone on the planet, is indeed "evil".

Do you see how the above quotes are incompatible?

If empathy is a subjective value, then it can't be a rational basis for determining right and wrong, it could only be used to determine what you prefer. Someone could value apathy over empathy.

There is absolutely zero evidence that empathy ought to be valued over apathy.

However, I completely agree with your first quote, there is no question that someone can value empathy, as I very much do, it's your second quote where the problem is. Both statements in that quote are false.
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11-12-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(11-12-2016 06:54 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 06:54 AM)Velvet Wrote:  [...] No, I want to know if it is possible to have any basis to judge or evaluate any act as good or bad, right or wrong, given everything that you just said.

This question has already been debated a gazillion times on these forums in one way or another. I suggest you check out http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...als+ethics or http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...als+ethics or http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...als+ethics before asking it yet again. Thanks.

I say start a new thread.

1. it's fun to hash this out

2. you get new people, which brings new ideas and new perspectives.

SYZ, perhaps you shouldn't click on threads about morality if it bothers you to read duplicate discussion....just a thought.
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11-12-2016, 10:42 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(11-12-2016 06:54 AM)SYZ Wrote:  ...
This question has already been debated a gazillion times on these forums in one way or another. I suggest you check out ...

That's not even the half of it. I'd say we're in double figures by now.

(11-12-2016 10:06 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  ...
I say start a new thread.
...

Noooo! Then my page-one prediction of 20 pages (400 posts) won't come true!

But my prediction that you'd turn up did. We just need St.Evil now.

(10-12-2016 05:44 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  ...



I'm having flash-backs to a year and a half ago when you first posted this. Is this the third or fourth time you've posted it? I've lost count. But I disagreed with it then as now.

You didn't respond to my criticism of it so I'll ask, with respect, is it worth me going through it in detail or will I just be wasting my time?

(11-12-2016 10:02 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(11-12-2016 06:22 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Empathy is a subjective value and it can be preferred over lack of empathy.

(23-11-2016 10:53 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You can form a rational basis for right and wrong from denoting harm that is caused by certain actions. This would be external to individual opinion.

So I can assert that god drowning everyone on the planet, is indeed "evil".

Do you see how the above quotes are incompatible?

If empathy is a subjective value, then it can't be a rational basis for determining right and wrong, it could only be used to determine what you prefer. Someone could value apathy over empathy.

There is absolutely zero evidence that empathy ought to be valued over apathy.

However, I completely agree with your first quote, there is no question that someone can value empathy, as I very much do, it's your second quote where the problem is. Both statements in that quote are false.

There's no contradiction.

You are again equivocating on the word 'value'.

There's placing a label on a scale (e.g. harm, empathy, loyalty etc.) which happens to be something that people might consider to be of value.

And then there is the numeric value as a metric.

'TheInquisition' is not saying that empathy or harm are the rational basis for determining right and wrong he's saying that we can (subjectively) select empathy or harm as the scale i.e. it's the label we can put on the y-axis by which we can objectively measure degrees of right-ness or wrongness (once those are defined)

Would you like a diagram?

Smartass

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