Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
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13-12-2016, 07:39 PM
Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(13-12-2016 07:31 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 07:28 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Haha, so you can't name the several people who you claim agree with you on this? At best all you can do is appeal to the single lackey Fatbaldhobbit liking your post?

What a chump.

Thus tomato confirms his trolling ignorance is still chugging along at full speed Drinking Beverage

Does being this big of a douche come naturally to you or have you practiced at it? Consider

Haha, are you seriously whining about me being a douche towards you?

You wouldn't even be mildly tolerable, or amusing any other way.

(I'm still waiting on you to name the several people who believe that something that can be irrefutibly verified as true, is not a fact, or objetively true)





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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-12-2016, 07:45 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(13-12-2016 07:31 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 07:28 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Haha, so you can't name the several people who you claim agree with you on this? At best all you can do is appeal to the single lackey Fatbaldhobbit liking your post?

What a chump.

Thus tomato confirms his trolling ignorance is still chugging along at full speed Drinking Beverage

Does being this big of a douche come naturally to you or have you practiced at it? Consider

Hey I got promoted to lackey! Do I get a t-shirt?

It's a step up from lab rat anyway... Drinking Beverage

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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14-12-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(13-12-2016 08:36 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(12-12-2016 04:00 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Hi DLJ,

What happens if someone kills an ant and doesn't justify the killing to anyone?

What if someone kills a cow or a human and provides no justification?

As far as I can tell, there isn't a single action (behavior) that requires justification. Even so, again, justification is a purely subjective thing, and we will never have any kind of consensus on this. And even if everyone did agree on something, like we are justified for imprisoning serial killers for life for example, that doesn't mean it is true. Similarly, even if everyone thinks the earth is flat, it doesn't mean its flat.

DLJ, are modern humans justified in eating meat?

"Hey, everyone, let's invade Iraq"
"What's your justification?"
"Matt says I don't need one"
"Oh, OK, off you go then".

I wonder if we might be at cross-purposes regarding what we think morality is for.

Consider

"Hey, everyone, it looks like a country is invading us"
"Don't worry, DLJ says they can't hurt us because they don't have the required justification"
"Oh, ok, guess I can relax then"
"oh crap, they killed us anyways, turns out you can kill people whether anyone thinks its justified or not"

DLJ,

Any chance you want to try to answer any of my questions?

You won't have good answers, and that's all I want you to admit.
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14-12-2016, 12:59 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(13-12-2016 01:54 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Ah, OK, sorry. I didn't realise that you were an anarchist.

That doesn't mean Tomasia is an anarchist. It just means he has a much better understanding of reality than you.
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14-12-2016, 04:27 PM (This post was last modified: 14-12-2016 04:32 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 04:11 AM)Velvet Wrote:  As a honest thinker, one is forced to apply skepticism to his moral intuitious, and until he is able to find rational justification he shouldn't regard them as anything more than his personal opinion, maybe learned from culture or "infused" by natural selection.

Then, now basically a Nihilist, one is unable to dish any moral judgment, and is rendered incapable of honestly telling why we shouldn't torture a child.

There is any validity to refer to right and wrong using bases of actions that maximize humanity's long term survival? Why it would be the case?

There's any validity to refer to right and wrong using bases of actions that minimize human suffering?

Morality is a difficult topic to talk intelligently and openly about.
For many people, morality is a significant part of their life. They consider themselves to be morally good, upstanding citizens and take pride in that self identity.
They have put a lot of thought into their own moral position and to challenge that can be seen a challenge upon their own character and intelligence.

So I find many people get defensive, and aggressive when trying to discuss this stuff.

I'm a moral nihilist, I think a moral position is indefensible (regardless whether it is objective morality or subjective morality that is proposed).

The way I see it, the idea of morality obfuscates the message or point being made. Most people use the moral language and hence end up talking past each other.

Even trying to get people to agree on a high level definition of the moral landscape is fraught with disagreements. There are some people that are adamant that a choice between drinking Pespi or Coke is a moral choice. There are many people who agree that morality is subjective and yet that doesn't stop them making public claims to a certain act being immoral as if they know the definitive answer.

Because there is no clear definition, it becomes very easy for a theist to beat an atheist in a moral debate. They claim that their all knowing god knows what is moral and what is immoral and hence it doesn't come down to human opinions.

If we claim that morality is subjective (we do this because we cannot appeal to an objective method of discovery) then we are portrayed as stating that morality is at the whim of each person. This doesn't bode well with the theists because they are taught that people are flawed and prone to evil, to desires, to greed and lust etc.

For an atheist debater, trying to defend subjective morality, they must put themselves into a position of high moral standing. Their opponent asks them, is it wrong to rape, or to kill babies, or to own slaves etc? Things that in this day and age, in our civilised societies we generally think that intuitively these things are wrong. If the atheist comes back and says "It depends how you define 'Wrong'" then they already lose the debate, because they look like some incompetent sociopathic cretin trying to weasel their way out due to not wanting to admit there are objective moral truths.
When asked the question "Is it wrong to rape?", we expect a moral upstanding citizen to say "It is, without question, absolutely wrong, deplorable and evil". Any other response makes the responder look like some fool and hence they lose all credibility.

Now WLC is a philosopher, he probably knows better. He knows that it is a respectable philosophical position to ask to have the term "wrong" clarified and properly defined. But in these debates he is not trying to philosophically explore ideas, he is trying to win (in the eyes of the audience) this debate, so he takes this path. A moral debate in front of common people is not a winnable debate for the atheist.

Even online, in atheist forums this type of discussion is difficult to persue. I tell people I'm a moral Nihilst and then I automatically get accused of either lying, decieving myself, or being a sociopath. The common person isn't up for exploring these things, they draw conclusions quickly without defining terms and concepts and quickly jump on people that have different views to their own.

Having these conversations in philosophy forums is much more productive.

(23-11-2016 06:54 AM)Velvet Wrote:  I want to know if it is possible to have any basis to judge or evaluate any act as good or bad, right or wrong...
There is no objective basis.
You could choose as your personal standard the golden rule, or perhaps the idea of minimising suffering and maximising happiness. Or what ever it is that spins your wheels. At least this standard puts some constraints on your ability to bend every situation as you see fit.

(23-11-2016 06:54 AM)Velvet Wrote:  And if its not possible then, what we supposed to do with our intuition about evil acts like rape, slavery, racism... discard it all because its just as supported as yesterday's "slavery is right"?
What do you do with them today?
If you use them to justify laws, well there are other ways to justify laws.
Rather than "We outlaw rape because it is wrong"
You could say "We outlaw rape because it causes conflict and suffering and danger within society" which conflicts with the purpose for our laws which is to support a harmonious, thriving and safe society.
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14-12-2016, 05:44 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
Yay! St.Evil is here.

Now we're definitely going to reach our target.

I was getting worried about you, man. How ya doin'?

Big Grin

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14-12-2016, 05:55 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(14-12-2016 05:44 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Yay! St.Evil is here.

Now we're definitely going to reach our target.

I was getting worried about you, man. How ya doin'?

Big Grin
Was trying to let others get a word in on these morality threads. My post was a fly by post (couldn't help myself). You guys can keep at it with Tomasia, I have no interest in him.
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14-12-2016, 06:05 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(14-12-2016 12:50 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  ...
"Don't worry, DLJ says they can't hurt us because they don't have the required justification"
...

[Image: Pie-Chart-I-See-What-You-Did-There.jpg]

I was torn between the above and a "Not sure if serious..."

Laugh out load

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14-12-2016, 10:16 PM (This post was last modified: 14-12-2016 10:31 PM by whateverist.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
I think way to much fuss is made about morality. It is as though doing no harm (where reasonably avoidable) isn't enough. Some seem to be looking for a gold star for moral excellence. But why is that a thing? Shouldn't a reasonable regard for others while pursuing a good life be enough. Why must we sit around and imagine a kazillion situations and worry about which course of action should receive the highest moral score? Frankly I don't think a life obsessed with being the most morally upstanding person could possibly be considered a good life.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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15-12-2016, 03:57 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(14-12-2016 06:05 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(14-12-2016 12:50 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  ...
"Don't worry, DLJ says they can't hurt us because they don't have the required justification"
...

[Image: Pie-Chart-I-See-What-You-Did-There.jpg]

I was torn between the above and a "Not sure if serious..."

Laugh out load

Just keep dodging those questions...
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