Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
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15-12-2016, 04:23 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(15-12-2016 03:57 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(14-12-2016 06:05 PM)DLJ Wrote:  [Image: Pie-Chart-I-See-What-You-Did-There.jpg]

I was torn between the above and a "Not sure if serious..."

Laugh out load

Just keep dodging those questions...

To be honest, I'd decided that you were being rhetorical to disprove a point I wasn't making but for fun, OK ... can you do me a favour and list the questions you want me to answer?

Cheers.

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15-12-2016, 08:10 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(14-12-2016 04:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  For an atheist debater, trying to defend subjective morality, they must put themselves into a position of high moral standing.

Except, that there is no such thing as “high” moral standing, when morality is subjective. No more than I have a higher standard of music because I prefer country over hiphop.

Quote:Now WLC is a philosopher, he probably knows better. He knows that it is a respectable philosophical position to ask to have the term "wrong" clarified and properly defined. But in these debates he is not trying to philosophically explore ideas, he is trying to win (in the eyes of the audience) this debate, so he takes this path. A moral debate in front of common people is not a winnable debate for the atheist.

I’m not sure why you believe this. Clearly you don’t give too much credence to secular or religious moral views, and believe they are all indefensible. You subscribe to moral nihilism, which you likely see as the only defensible position here.

If someone develops a clear definition of what they mean by wrong, in a way that’s evident to you what they personally mean by it when they use it in a variety of different context, will this make you reconsider your moral nihilism? Or would this be irrelevant.

What most theists engaging in arguments about morality, tend to recognize is that atheists, particularly non-moral nihilist, is that they talk out of both sides of their mouth. Something Matt will likely agree with me on here.

While they attempt to hold that morality is subjective on one end, they continue to speak of morality as if it’s not subjective, speak of moral progressions, higher morality, moral obligations, responsibilities etc… In fact even here, where a number of atheists confess to moral subjectivism, they also claim it’s a special kind of “subjective”, that it’s not a matter of personal opinions, or feelings. That it’s nothing like when we refer to “subjective”, when speaking of standard of beauty, of food tastes, or musical preferences.

The theist is just chasing the atheist to acknowledge, that when they speak of subjective morality, that at best, they’re speaking of their own personal likes and dislikes, like when speaking of food, and that they have no actual foundation to pass moral judgments.

Or the theist is just chasing the atheist to the only reasonably position remaining for them, and that’s moral nihilism. And as I recall, that’s exactly what happened to you. You subscribed to some form of humanistic moral beliefs, only to recognize their incoherency when arguing over morality with theists. Which then led you to accept moral nihilism as the only defensible position.

And my main issue with moral nihilist, is that they don’t take their reasoning far enough, they don’t apply it to other cherished domains, such as truth, and objective reality, because those are to valuable to them, to run the same bulldozer over. But that’s another argument.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-12-2016, 08:13 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(15-12-2016 08:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The theist is just chasing the atheist to acknowledge, that when they speak of subjective morality, that at best, they’re speaking of their own personal likes and dislikes, like when speaking of food, and that they have no actual foundation to pass moral judgments.

You like living in a stable, crime free society? Congratulations, you just found a fucking foundation to pass judgements. Call it what you like, morals or whatever.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-12-2016, 08:30 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(15-12-2016 08:13 AM)morondog Wrote:  You like living in a stable, crime free society? Congratulations, you just found a fucking foundation to pass judgements. Call it what you like, morals or whatever.

No, since I prefer to live in a stable crime free society i support laws and their enforcement to ensure that.

Now you can do a variety of shit that's perfectly legal, that's not conducive to a stable society, and the only thing I can do is state to you that what you're doing is not conducive to a stable society, but I have no foundation to judge you on this, other than I don't like it. And you can just laugh me off. Your liking and disliking here, no more meaningful than rep points on this forum.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-12-2016, 08:41 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(15-12-2016 08:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-12-2016 08:13 AM)morondog Wrote:  You like living in a stable, crime free society? Congratulations, you just found a fucking foundation to pass judgements. Call it what you like, morals or whatever.

No, since I prefer to live in a stable crime free society i support laws and their enforcement to ensure that.
OK so you opted to not call it morality.

Quote:Now you can do a variety of shit that's perfectly legal, that's not conducive to a stable society, and the only thing I can do is state to you that what you're doing is not conducive to a stable society, but I have no foundation to judge you on this, other than I don't like it. And you can just laugh me off. Your liking and disliking here, no more meaningful than rep points on this forum.
... Your point?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-12-2016, 09:40 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(15-12-2016 08:13 AM)morondog Wrote:  You like living in a stable, crime free society? Congratulations, you just found a fucking foundation to pass judgements. Call it what you like, morals or whatever.

Thank you!

Call it a justice system, passing judgement, moral code, right & wrong, personal opinion, whatever. It's the same fucking thing.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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15-12-2016, 10:15 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(15-12-2016 08:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The theist is just chasing the atheist to acknowledge, that when they speak of subjective morality, that at best, they’re speaking of their own personal likes and dislikes, like when speaking of food, and that they have no actual foundation to pass moral judgments.


I prefer to leave the moral judgments to those obsessed with them. It is the legal judgments of the judicial system which interest me more. Applying sufficient coercion where needed but maximizing personal liberty is all that interests me. I'm not interested in earning a Christian achievement badge for moral purity.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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15-12-2016, 10:53 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(15-12-2016 08:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  OK so you opted to not call it morality.

No I opted to call it what it is, legal laws. And calling concerns about my personal safety, concerns about my personal safety. I also want my neighbors penalized for not keeping an orderly neat looking yard, and for leaving their trashcans out past trash day, or for loud music.

Quote:... Your point?

that you have no justification for the basis of your moral judgements.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-12-2016, 01:38 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(15-12-2016 10:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  that you have no justification for the basis of your moral judgements.

Oh. Boo hoo. I guess I'll go cry somewhere then. As it happens I *can* justify my judgements, in the context of what I want for society. You are free to disagree, but it's not some fucking lottery where everyone's viewpoint is as valid as everyone else's. As with science, you can't play some kind of post-modern "my view is as valid as yours" card. Science *works*, that's all. In the same way, our social order *works*. You can have your masturbatory definition games all you like. I am not claiming some personal omniscient point of view, I'm definitely saying you're full of shit.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-12-2016, 02:07 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(15-12-2016 01:38 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(15-12-2016 10:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  that you have no justification for the basis of your moral judgements.

Oh. Boo hoo. I guess I'll go cry somewhere then. As it happens I *can* justify my judgements, in the context of what I want for society. You are free to disagree, but it's not some fucking lottery where everyone's viewpoint is as valid as everyone else's. As with science, you can't play some kind of post-modern "my view is as valid as yours" card. Science *works*, that's all. In the same way, our social order *works*. You can have your masturbatory definition games all you like. I am not claiming some personal omniscient point of view, I'm definitely saying you're full of shit.

He actually agrees with you. He's just too stupid to get that.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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