Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
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16-12-2016, 03:04 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(16-12-2016 02:56 PM)Velvet Wrote:  What happened here while I was away?, 20 pages Shocking

Tommy feels a mysterious compulsion to turn every thread he enters into horseshit. Which has now happened.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-12-2016, 03:14 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(16-12-2016 06:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I hate to break it you Bucky. But you are a generalization, just like every other biological creature.

Blink

Definition of generalization
1
: the act or process of generalizing
2
: a general statement, law, principle, or proposition
3
: the act or process whereby a learned response is made to a stimulus similar to but not identical with the conditioned stimulus

Webster.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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16-12-2016, 04:45 PM (This post was last modified: 16-12-2016 04:49 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
Guys, I just wanted to point out that Unfogged sorted this out (as far as I was concerned) like, 20 pages ago, we don't really need to do this any longer...Drinking Beverage


(24-11-2016 07:52 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(24-11-2016 07:11 AM)Velvet Wrote:  No I'm not implying that, I saying that using everything we just agreed on I would feel intelectually dishonest if I WERE, to judge other's morals opinions as wrong.

You are not intellectually dishonest to judge another person's opinions against your own standards so long as you aren't claiming that your standards are objective or absolute.

The key is having a rational basis for your standards and being willing to revise your standards if others can convince you that their standards are superior in some way.

Quote:I'm a clown because I'm looking for logical justification for things before I feel comfortable in doing them? why would I be?

The question I have is what logical justification is required beyond necessity. We live in a society and that means we need guidelines for getting along with each other if we prefer not to descend into total anarchy. That's all the justification I need to have opinions on what is moral and what isn't.

Yes, it is a personal opinion that total anarchy would be worse to live under. I base that on seeing cases in the world and throughout history that approached that type of "society". The universe may not care about it, but I do.

Quote:Yes, I also think they do not exist, that's why I'm defending that we shouldn't judge if we want to be coherent with our skeptical stance when we inquire people for their rational justification for holding their beliefs and opinions, we can do so without being hypocritical.

There is nothing hypocritical about judging according to personal standards and still being skeptical. My standards are based on my evaluation of the evidence as to what actions lead to a more stable, flourishing society which gives everybody the best chance of enjoying life. If you can show me that a particular conclusion I hold is less optimal than another I will reconsider that. That is the best I can do.

Somebody else may have opinions that are based on another goal. In that case I will likely [consider] them to often be immoral according to my standards and they will return the favor. So what? We've already agreed that there is no absolute morality and that it is relative. Neither side is being hypocritical as long as they are consistent in their judgements within their own framework.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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16-12-2016, 10:15 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(16-12-2016 07:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  That's like saying Yorkies, not dogs is the group in question. You're a group of biological organisms that self identify as "atheists".

And you don't go around insulting biological organisms. The GROUP you do constantly hold up as special and insult is atheists. So no, your analogy is utterly backwards, Tomato.

Quote:No, you might hold a variety of different beliefs, and have some different set of life events than I do. But you're not unique, you're just as much a biological creature as I am. Just like any two dogs might exhibit different sets of behaviors because of a difference in environment. Yet be very much like other dogs.

That was NEVER the question and never the POINT. The group you love to trash is atheists, not organisms. You really should learn some critical thinking skills.

Quote:If my understanding of others such as yourself was based solely on an understanding of myself that would be a problem. But it's based on a gathering of information about a variety of human beings, many I know personally and in depth, a variety of studies of human and animal behavior etc.

You really don't know ANY non-believers, do you ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-12-2016, 10:16 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(16-12-2016 02:56 PM)Velvet Wrote:  What happened here while I was away?, 20 pages Shocking

Sorry to everyone who spoke to me while I was away, vacation for me includes vacation from study and that includes reading and posting on forums Laugh out load

The fart thread was hatched. The most momentous event in TTA history.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-12-2016, 01:18 AM
Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(16-12-2016 11:45 AM)Stevil Wrote:  The problem, Tomasia, is that you don't listen.

"complain" isn't the appropriate word.
I pointed out to you that people's moral beliefs are based on a premise, not just on a whim.

The premise might be the golden rule, or minimise suffering, or their empathy and emotions etc.
They apply that situations. If, on a whim, they go against that then they may unconsciously punish themselves with guilt. When a person drinks Pepsi instead of Coke, they don't feel guilt.

Whim is your word not mine, but it's fine as long you mean by whim, subjective, based on ones personal opibions, feelings, or taste.

Whatever premise they choose is subjective. Perhaps one day they decide to live by the golden rule, the next day they don't care to. Perhaps one day they want to reduce suffering, next day they don't really care to. Perhaps they wanted to be nice to everybody, but then found themselves being mean, and liked it, and found themselves not feeling guilty about it.

This should be evident right. If you thought the golden rule is something you personally felt might by a preferable rule to apply to yourself. It would just be a subjective decision on your part, based on your individual preference at the time, on your "whim" if that's the word you prefer here.

In regards to guilt, perhaps im an employee for Pepsi, and one day i decided to purchase coke, and I feel guilty about it. Perhaps my wife doesnt like me drinking high calorie drinks, but I get a Pepsi, and feel guilty.

Perhaps I feel guilty for not giving my dog some cake, that he was begging for. A person can feel guilt for a variety of reasons, even when they don't believe they did anything wrong.



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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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17-12-2016, 07:15 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(17-12-2016 01:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 11:45 AM)Stevil Wrote:  The problem, Tomasia, is that you don't listen.

"complain" isn't the appropriate word.
I pointed out to you that people's moral beliefs are based on a premise, not just on a whim.

The premise might be the golden rule, or minimise suffering, or their empathy and emotions etc.
They apply that situations. If, on a whim, they go against that then they may unconsciously punish themselves with guilt. When a person drinks Pepsi instead of Coke, they don't feel guilt.

Whim is your word not mine, but it's fine as long you mean by whim, subjective, based on ones personal opibions, feelings, or taste.

Whatever premise they choose is subjective. Perhaps one day they decide to live by the golden rule, the next day they don't care to. Perhaps one day they want to reduce suffering, next day they don't really care to. Perhaps they wanted to be nice to everybody, but then found themselves being mean, and liked it, and found themselves not feeling guilty about it.

This should be evident right. If you thought the golden rule is something you personally felt might by a preferable rule to apply to yourself. It would just be a subjective decision on your part, based on your individual preference at the time, on your "whim" if that's the word you prefer here.

In regards to guilt, perhaps im an employee for Pepsi, and one day i decided to purchase coke, and I feel guilty about it. Perhaps my wife doesnt like me drinking high calorie drinks, but I get a Pepsi, and feel guilty.

Perhaps I feel guilty for not giving my dog some cake, that he was begging for. A person can feel guilt for a variety of reasons, even when they don't believe they did anything wrong.



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Well said! Thumbsup
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20-12-2016, 02:36 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(17-12-2016 01:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Whim is your word not mine, but it's fine as long you mean by whim, subjective, based on ones personal opibions, feelings, or taste.
On whim means that it is very flexible, very prone to change.

(17-12-2016 01:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Whatever premise they choose is subjective. Perhaps one day they decide to live by the golden rule, the next day they don't care to.
Sure, the premise, if they have chosen one, is part of who they are, it's not something that is easily changed. Do you understand that?

They can change it, it is possible, but not done on a whim, do you understand?

(17-12-2016 01:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Perhaps one day they want to reduce suffering, next day they don't really care to.
What happened to this person that changed their ideas and values here? Seems that it must have been something pretty significant.

(17-12-2016 01:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  This should be evident right. If you thought the golden rule is something you personally felt might by a preferable rule to apply to yourself. It would just be a subjective decision on your part, based on your individual preference at the time, on your "whim" if that's the word you prefer here.
No, not on a whim. It is a personal preference but built up from a lifetime of conditioning and experiences.

(17-12-2016 01:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  In regards to guilt, perhaps im an employee for Pepsi, and one day i decided to purchase coke, and I feel guilty about it.
Sure, yes, you could feel guilt because you may feel that you are betraying someone, betraying yourself, betraying your employer, you have equated loyalty with moral and disloyalty with immoral.
But with the Pepsi/Coke example we were talking about the common person, rather than an employee, seems you missed the point again. All analogies can be taken out of context if a person really wants to miss the point or just be argumentative for the sake of it.


(17-12-2016 01:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Perhaps I feel guilty for not giving my dog some cake, that he was begging for. A person can feel guilt for a variety of reasons, even when they don't believe they did anything wrong.
Really, name one example? All of your stated examples are where the person believes they have done something wrong by someone. E.g. employee betraying their employer, owner betraying their dog.
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20-12-2016, 03:54 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(20-12-2016 02:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  On whim means that it is very flexible, very prone to change.

If that’s the case then don’t associate the term “whim” with my views of subjective morality, as you previously were doing. In fact I don’t find many of our subjective preferences to be “very” flexible or “very” prone to change, such as my taste in food, music, woman, books, films etc.. So don’t continue arguing that moral preferences, are not whims, as if I claimed they were.

Quote:Sure, the premise, if they have chosen one, is part of who they are, it's not something that is easily changed. Do you understand that?

They can change it, it is possible, but not done on a whim, do you understand?

I’m not sure about “easily “changed, or being “very” flexible, or “very” prone to change. But moral preferences change all the time, such our views of homosexuality, transexuals, gender specific bathrooms, slaves, blacks, muslims etc…. When I was a dewey eyed twenty year old, I was more prone to typical liberal values, as I grew older, I became more prone to more conservative/traditional ones.

Quote:What happened to this person that changed their ideas and values here? Seems that it must have been something pretty significant.

They realized that you were right, and that morality doesn’t exist, that it’s just a sham, that they don’t need to feel bad about it, because in reality they did nothing wrong. As I recall in the past you indicated that you’re not prone to feeling moral guilt. That you wouldn’t feel guilty about stealing a persons wallet.

Quote:No, not on a whim. It is a personal preference but built up from a lifetime of conditioning and experiences.

Which can be said of pretty much all of our subjective preferences. My tastes in music, clothing, furniture, food, all shaped by a lifetime of conditioning and experiences.

Quote:Sure, yes, you could feel guilt because you may feel that you are betraying someone, betraying yourself, betraying your employer, you have equated loyalty with moral and disloyalty with immoral[…]Really, name one example? All of your stated examples are where the person believes they have done something wrong by someone. E.g. employee betraying their employer, owner betraying their dog.

Guilt is a feeling. When I don’t give my dog Pizza I’m not betraying him. In fact pizza is bad for his health. The reason I feel guilty, is biological. I love my dog, he’s so cute and adorable, anytime he whines for something, the sound of it produces a biological response, associated with the sensation of guilt. It makes it easier for me to get over it, since I recognize it as such, an irrational feeling, knowing that I haven’t betrayed him, or done anything truly wrong.

And the thing about feelings is that they’re not universally consistent, different people can get over different feelings at different rates. Some people can get over a breakup rather quickly, some might be so distraught by it they commit suicide. Some people have such trouble with the thought of killing another animal, that they refuse to eat meat, others, like my local butcher have no qualms slicing a lambs neck.

Studies have also shown that when you change people sense of responsibility you can change their behavior. Other studies have shown that when you undermine students belief in free-will, feeding them determinism, they’re more prone to cheating on test.

Take a person who believed that morality was objective, but later recognizes that morality does not exists, and accepts moral nihilism, perhaps after hearing yours and Matt’s arguments here. He recognizes that he does not have any moral responsibilities or duties, that nothing he does is morally wrong. All this might lead him no longer feeling guilt, or the sensation of guilt feeling less severe, like ex-christian atheists, who no longer feel guilty about masterbating or premarital sex. He might find your wallet one day, and being tempted keeps the money in it for himself, an irrational feeling of guilt comes over him, like a newly minted ex-christian atheist feeling an irrational sense of guilt for masterbating. The person who stole your wallet, should be able to just as easily get over his feeling of guilt, by telling himself that he did nothing wrong, that he has no moral responsibility or duty to give it back to you, as the ex-christian atheists masterbator.

Whether it takes significant pressure here, is entirely dependent on each individual person. It likely took far less pressure to get you and Matt Finney to accept Moral Nihilism, than many atheists here who perhaps never will. Some people are more pliable here than others, require less significant pressure than others. It might be quite hard to get my wife to kill the chicken we’ll have for dinner herself, while it might come easier for me.

So far it seems the biggest contentions you and others have here, regarding my views of subjective morality, is my tendency to equate it with other subjective preferences, such as taste in fashion, food, or music. An objection no one, including yourself has been able to substantiate. Here you attempted to suggest the difference is that our subjective moral preference are not very prone to change, of very flexible, a point that can be equally true for many of other subjective preferences as well, such as beauty, fashion, food, and music.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-12-2016, 04:32 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
Quote:No, not on a whim. It is a personal preference but built up from a lifetime of conditioning and experiences.

.... and learning, and thought and reading and experience and observations.

(20-12-2016 03:54 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Which can be said of pretty much all of our subjective preferences. My tastes in music, clothing, furniture, food, all shaped by a lifetime of conditioning and experiences.

It *could* be said, but in general you would be wrong. Your false analogy is idiotic and simple-minded. People don't study music and furniture design to learn "what to like". They DO study Philosophy and Ethics to try to discern what is right for them.

You REALLY are a simpleton and a fool.

Quote: ... or the sensation of guilt feeling less severe, like ex-christian atheists, who no longer feel guilty about masterbating or premarital sex.

*didn't they teach you how to spell "masturbating" at your prestigious university ?

You made that shit up. You have no evidence to back up anything you spout. But we DO see what it is you hate atheists about, and what you are obsessed with . Facepalm

Quote:
bla bla bla .. fashion, food, or music. An objection no one, including yourself has been able to substantiate.

Just did idiot. Play us another broken record.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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