Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
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20-12-2016, 05:04 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(20-12-2016 03:54 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But moral preferences change all the time, such our views of homosexuality, transexuals, gender specific bathrooms, slaves, blacks, muslims etc….
What do you mean by "all the time"? When did you last change your views on homosexuality, transexuals, slaves, blacks, muslims?


(20-12-2016 03:54 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  When I was a dewey eyed twenty year old, I was more prone to typical liberal values, as I grew older, I became more prone to more conservative/traditional ones.
So you had one change in your life?
You were younger and more open to making your own decisions and when you got older you wanted to follow traditions rather than make your own decisions?
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20-12-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(20-12-2016 03:54 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Guilt is a feeling. When I don’t give my dog Pizza I’m not betraying him. In fact pizza is bad for his health. The reason I feel guilty, is biological. I love my dog, he’s so cute and adorable, anytime he whines for something, the sound of it produces a biological response, associated with the sensation of guilt.
You're talking out your arse here.
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20-12-2016, 05:45 PM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2016 05:48 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(20-12-2016 05:04 PM)Stevil Wrote:  What do you mean by "all the time"? When did you last change your views on homosexuality, transexuals, slaves, blacks, muslims?

I've changed my views on homosexuality and transexuals several times. One day I might be more accepting of it, and another less accepting of it. Sometimes i lean more to views transexuals as born that way, sometimes i lean more towards seeing it as identity disorder. I last changed my views a few weeks ago, and it's perhaps bound to change again. And American attitudes towards muslims have changed considerably post 9/11. Our moral preferences can change several times in our lifetime, some might change over generations. Can shift as environmental and social pressures shift.

In fact all my moral views would change drastically, if I was convinced of the validity of moral nihilism. Not one thing I once saw as morally wrong, would remain morally wrong. Just like it did for you.


(20-12-2016 03:54 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You were younger and more open to making your own decisions and when you got older you wanted to follow traditions rather than make your own decisions?

I'm not sure about you, but I lean towards determinism, I no more or no less made my own decisions when it came to morality then, as I do now. My morality shifted as my values shifted, as my cynicism grew, as my overall views of human beings shifted, as my distaste for liberals developed, as I moved from one geographical location and social setting dominated by liberals, to another not so dominated. Changing social and environmental pressures shifted my values and moral outlook considerably, just like the behavior and attitudes of other animals might shift in a change of setting, my sweet dog might not be so sweet if he was thrown into the wild.

Quote:You're talking out your arse here.

No i'm speaking about the feeling of guilt, which is a result of whatever stimuli elicits it.

If you have something you want to object to here, then please go right on ahead and share it.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-12-2016, 08:58 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(20-12-2016 05:45 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I've changed my views on homosexuality and transexuals several times.

That you spend time thinking about this makes me think you're a pervert.

I mean why, why do you even care about another person's sexuality? Why do you think on it?

Secret desires???

What's the story?

I don't spend time thinking about other people and their sexual habits. It sounds creepy and sick to me.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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20-12-2016, 09:08 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(20-12-2016 08:58 PM)Banjo Wrote:  That you spend time thinking about this makes me think you're a pervert.

I mean why, why do you even care about another person's sexuality? Why do you think on it?

Secret desires???

What's the story?

I don't spend time thinking about other people and their sexual habits. It sounds creepy and sick to me.

So I'm pervert if I like men? or if I was closeted transexual? Not sure what would be creepy and sick about this, but I think you're a closeted homophobe.

I don't give shit about your sexuality, just like I don't give a shit if you cheated on your wife, or if you were a shitty father, or if you thought you were a fish. I might think something is wrong with you but I don't really give a shit about it. You ain't my son, my friend, or anybody I give a shit about, so you can do whatever you want, as long as it ain't affecting me.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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20-12-2016, 10:13 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(20-12-2016 05:45 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-12-2016 05:04 PM)Stevil Wrote:  What do you mean by "all the time"? When did you last change your views on homosexuality, transexuals, slaves, blacks, muslims?

I've changed my views on homosexuality and transexuals several times. One day I might be more accepting of it, and another less accepting of it.
Why do you need to be accepting of it?
What does it matter if you accept it or not? How does this translate with regards to how you treat these people?

I mean if you accept it, you treat these people with kindness, with respect, with charity, basically, you treat them as human beings.

If you are not accepting of it, does that mean you treat them as less than human?

Are you willing to support laws to lock them up or to seperate them from their loved ones?

(20-12-2016 05:45 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Sometimes i lean more to views transexuals as born that way, sometimes i lean more towards seeing it as identity disorder.
What does it matter with regards to the cause? They are the way they are, they are people, living their own lives, making their own choice, they are no threat to you.
Who are you to judge them?

(20-12-2016 05:45 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I last changed my views a few weeks ago, and it's perhaps bound to change again.
Are you talking about your view on the morality of homosexuality or your unqualified view on the cause of homosexuality?

(20-12-2016 05:45 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And American attitudes towards muslims have changed considerably post 9/11.
It seems some people are growing a fear of Muslims even though the vast majority are peaceful. But that doesn't equate to the perspective of morality. I would imagine that Christians believe it is immoral to belong to a non Christian religion or even no religion at all. I would expect that view hasn't changed at all.

(20-12-2016 05:45 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Our moral preferences can change several times in our lifetime, some might change over generations. Can shift as environmental and social pressures shift.
Don't you guys get your morals given to you from your church?
Your leaders tell you that homosexuality is a sin so you accept that, your leaders tell you it is a sin to have sex outside of marriage so you accept that, don't you?

Do you think it is upto you to decide what is right or wrong, or do you think it is upto your beloved church to decide that?

(20-12-2016 05:45 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm not sure about you, but I lean towards determinism, I no more or no less made my own decisions when it came to morality then, as I do now. My morality shifted as my values shifted, as my cynicism grew, as my overall views of human beings shifted, as my distaste for liberals developed
What is a liberal in your opinion?

My view is that a liberal is accepting that adults have the right to make their own choices, to pick their own path. The opposite of that would be to support control, to want an authority to determine the path and to use force to get adults to comply.
What is it about liberals that you don't like?

(20-12-2016 05:45 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Changing social and environmental pressures shifted my values and moral outlook considerably.
You belong to a church organisation. What morals do they let you decide for yourself? If they let you decide for yourself, then aren't they a liberal church?

(20-12-2016 05:45 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No i'm speaking about the feeling of guilt, which is a result of whatever stimuli elicits it.

If you have something you want to object to here, then please go right on ahead and share it.
Catholics have guilt for having impure thoughts, or from having sex with their spouse without trying to make a baby at the same time. Non Catholics feel no guilt over these things. Is the biology of a Catholic different from non Catholics?
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20-12-2016, 10:21 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(20-12-2016 05:45 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  In fact all my moral views would change drastically, if I was convinced of the validity of moral nihilism. Not one thing I once saw as morally wrong, would remain morally wrong. Just like it did for you.

The fact that your values are so baseless, ill-formed and uneducated that your alternative is "moral nihilism" tells us you really are afraid of yourself and you fear what you are capable of. Tell ya what Tomato, you keep your Jebus blankey. You're less dangerous that way.

Adults have many moral systems and have LEARNED and established for themselves what they base their morals on. Apparently you "prestigious university" didn't teach you to actually think for yourself.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-12-2016, 07:27 AM
Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(20-12-2016 10:21 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The fact that your values are so baseless, ill-formed and uneducated that your alternative is "moral nihilism" tells us you really are afraid of yourself and you fear what you are capable of. Tell ya what Tomato, you keep your Jebus blankey. You're less dangerous that way.

Moral Nihilism is the only position amongst you all that's at least remotely coherent. The rest is just gobblygook, that folks such as yourself have a harder time defending than folks defending creationism do.

And no I'm not afraid of being a moral nihilist. Not sure what's there to fear in being a Matt Finney or a Stevil, they seem okay. I'd be more embarrassed subscribing to a belief in subjective morality.

Quote:Adults have many moral systems and have LEARNED and established for themselves what they base their morals on.

Is this a uniquely human thing? Or do other animals, like chimpanzees have moral systems as well?






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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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21-12-2016, 08:43 AM
Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(20-12-2016 10:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Why do you need to be accepting of it?
What does it matter if you accept it or not? How does this translate with regards to how you treat these people?

I mean if you accept it, you treat these people with kindness, with respect, with charity, basically, you treat them as human beings.

It seems you're trying to shift the argument here, trying to abandon your original contentions. I though of answering your questions but first, you have to confess that you can't support your original claims, about my lack of understanding of subjective morality. Or your claims that subjective morality, is different than other subjective preferences.

If you can't do this, than return to defending this, rather than trying to deflect and move the goal post.

Quote:If you are not accepting of it, does that mean you treat them as less than human?

Are you willing to support laws to lock them up or to seperate them from their loved ones?[/quote

The only thing you need to accept is that my moral views of homosexuality have changed multiple times, sometimes I see it as immoral, sometime I don't. Since it was the idea of changes in ones morality that was in question.

How my moral views of homosexuality, effect my treatment of them, or the laws I support, is of no relevance to the topic.

[quote]
What does it matter with regards to the cause? They are the way they are, they are people, living their own lives, making their own choice, they are no threat to you.
Who are you to judge them?

Why do you care how I treat or judge other Americans? It's clearly not your concern as a Kiwi. It should be of no more concern to you, than your treatment of Maoris is to me.

Quote:Are you talking about your view on the morality of homosexuality or your unqualified view on the cause of homosexuality?

My views of homosexuality qualified or unqualified effect my moral views, whether I see homosexuality as immoral or not.

Quote:It seems some people are growing a fear of Muslims even though the vast majority are peaceful. But that doesn't equate to the perspective of morality. I would imagine that Christians believe it is immoral to belong to a non Christian religion or even no religion at all. I would expect that view hasn't changed at all.

If they're exclusive monotheist they might view being Muslims as immoral, if they're not exclusive monotheist they might not see it as immoral. Someone could be raises as an exclusive monotheist, and change as he gets older, no longer seeing it as immoral.

Quote:Don't you guys get your morals given to you from your church?
Your leaders tell you that homosexuality is a sin so you accept that, your leaders tell you it is a sin to have sex outside of marriage so you accept that, don't you?

My morality is shaped by a variety of environmental and social factors, just like every other human being, and not exclusively or even predominantly religious, because I don't live in isolation of other pressures.

Quote:Do you think it is upto you to decide what is right or wrong, or do you think it is upto your beloved church to decide that?

As being pretty close to a determinist myself, I don't believe any of us get to decide anything, but we're preconditioned by variety of external pressures to hold one view or the other. My church is no more able to decide my views, than my parents, a death of a loved one, Illness, liberal education, age, the price of gas, are able to.

Quote:Catholics have guilt for having impure thoughts, or from having sex with their spouse without trying to make a baby at the same time. Non Catholics feel no guilt over these things. Is the biology of a Catholic different from non Catholics?

Some dogs like to be pet some dogs don't, are they biologically different? Some people get aroused by skinny girls, some get aroused by more meaty ones, are they biological different? My wife feels guilty when she says no to her parents, I don't. Are we biologically different?

Different stimuli elicits biological arousal here, for different people. Same with guilt, a wide variety of stimuli, may elicit that feeling, and can be different for different people. My dog whining may make me feel guilty, the person watching him in daycare might not be effected.

But I'm curious as to what you're suggesting here, to see if we're somewhat on the same page. If a person doesn't believe what they're doing is morally wrong they would they not feel guilty? Is the feeling of guilt dependent on beliefs that a moral transgression has transpired.

Is so. Does this mean that moral nihilist who don't believe anything is morally wrong don't feel guilt? If so how long after one becomes a moral nihilist do they stop feeling guilt? Instanteniously?











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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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21-12-2016, 10:37 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(21-12-2016 07:27 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Moral Nihilism is the only position amongst you all that's at least remotely coherent. The rest is just gobblygook, that folks such as yourself have a harder time defending than folks defending creationism do.

Not because your BIAS tells you so. In (real ones, UNLIKE the crap one you went to) universities ALL OVER THE world, and in medical institutions ALL OVER the world, real thoughtful people come to consensus and LEARN about what is the moral thing to do for them, and in the specific situation. You default crap "moral nihilism" IS NOT the position we espouse. YOU MAKDE THAT SHIT UP. You have NO evidence for your LIES.

Quote:Is this a uniquely human thing? Or do other animals, like chimpanzees have moral systems as well?

I don't know, but your idiotic question is IRRELEVANT and yet another disingenuous attempt at deflection. Nice try at not REALLY replying to THE POINT THAT WAS MADE.

What are you doing here ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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