Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
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23-11-2016, 10:07 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 09:26 AM)Velvet Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 08:55 AM)morondog Wrote:  I think the question is more, is there a reason that one can say that being a slave *owner* is intrinsically morally bad? I say there isn't really, unless we're happy to judge by our own personal morality or society's collective morality in the form of law. Poor ol' Velvet seems to think along similar lines but not like ye olde conclusion.

Yes, that's precisely what poor ol' Velvet is doing.

And I think that the actual conclusion (alongside the implications that would make it freaking horrible), is somehow escaping you...

Well the answer is, I like to an intelectually honest person, that's one of my top priorities in my life, I don't like to judge dishonestly or on a biased way, I tend to suspend judgment on most ocasions where I cannot safely assume a stance.

If I were to acknowledge that what I think from "right and wrong" its just an opinion (which is what I'm doing), I would then proceed to act in a way to be completely coherent with that view, treating my (and everyone's else) good and evil intuitions as I treat any other unsupported and personal opinion, which is basically disregard it and stick to the facts.

So I will might have to learn how to feel again... because I cannot feel angry to child rapists (anymore)... because they are not wrong, because the wrong does not exist.

They are breaking a law, and that's not reason to hate them or despise them (because we too break laws all the time, not only traffic small laws, but also "social" laws, and/or laws/codes/regulations of our jobs whenever we feel they are not really important).

Surely we can still confine them to protect others, but we would not be justified to hate them, and I'm the kind of guy who would feel bad with myself everytime I notice I'm feeling or doing something that I'm not rationally supported to do or feel.

It was already way too hard to learn how to not hate my ex-wife for decieving me... the evidence of deception being a common practice on nature all over the place, in all sorts of animals, saying me I was wrong, and that I should let it go... that she was just being human, which is an animal nonetheless... that it was not really reasonable to hate her, as I wouldn't suddenly start hating orchid mantises would I?

And now i'm supposed to watch a child rapist on TV on not judge him... I'm supposed to "let go" the genocides on the bible because they are not wrong...

It amazes me that you guys cannot see how terrifying and hard that could be.

Sorry for the surprise rant:
[Image: 5815131_orig.jpg]

You are free to hate or love whomever or whatever you wish.

Assigning emotional value to something is completely arbitrary, but I'm sure you'll find plenty of people to agree with you that genocide; or a number of other things, are horrible on a human and personal level. Thumbsup

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-11-2016, 10:27 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 10:07 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You are free to hate or love whomever or whatever you wish.

Assigning emotional value to something is completely arbitrary, but I'm sure you'll find plenty of people to agree with you that genocide; or a number of other things, are horrible on a human and personal level. Thumbsup
Yes, you can assign, but as you said, with no rational basis whatsoever...

Wouldn't you feel dishonest to call the bible (or Yahweh) as immoral if you understand that morality is nothing more than your opinion of what you think the world should be? You would be actually saying something is wrong because in your opinion it is wrong...

I mean you are criticizing using an irrelevant standard, being only your opinion...

And not only that, an opinion that was ingrained by your culture, society and/or evolutionary traces so you can't even call it an unbiased opinion...

How can one judge morals value while being a relativist? Isn't that completely incoherent?

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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23-11-2016, 10:34 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 08:06 AM)Velvet Wrote:  Afterall, natural selection is all about allowing the fittest to survive and the rest to perish... equally distributing everything perfectly wouldn't stale evolution for the human race?...

Technology has rendered natural selection obsolete. We can manipulate evolution in other species (knowingly or otherwise) by virtue of modifying their environment. When you can manipulate the genetics and epigenetics evolution is OBE. Natural selection has resulted in weeding out natural selection.

#sigh
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23-11-2016, 10:53 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 10:27 AM)Velvet Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 10:07 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You are free to hate or love whomever or whatever you wish.

Assigning emotional value to something is completely arbitrary, but I'm sure you'll find plenty of people to agree with you that genocide; or a number of other things, are horrible on a human and personal level. Thumbsup
Yes, you can assign, but as you said, with no rational basis whatsoever...

Wouldn't you feel dishonest to call the bible (or Yahweh) as immoral if you understand that morality is nothing more than your opinion of what you think the world should be? You would be actually saying something is wrong because in your opinion it is wrong...

I mean you are criticizing using an irrelevant standard, being only your opinion...

And not only that, an opinion that was ingrained by your culture, society and/or evolutionary traces so you can't even call it an unbiased opinion...

How can one judge morals value while being a relativist? Isn't that completely incoherent?

You can form a rational basis for right and wrong from denoting harm that is caused by certain actions. This would be external to individual opinion.

So I can assert that god drowning everyone on the planet, is indeed "evil".

If I have enough people that agree that certain actions are harmful, then we can have a group of people that can enforce this standard upon someone that disagrees.

So a member of ISIS can get a drone missile up his ass. Thumbsup

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-11-2016, 11:10 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 10:27 AM)Velvet Wrote:  How can one judge morals value while being a relativist? Isn't that completely incoherent?

Seriously: WHAT IS THE OTHER OPTION?

Until someone proves an Objective Morality, Subjective Morality is all we have.

Deal with it.

Life is complicated. There is no god or magic rule book to tell you how it works.

You do the best you can and try to fuck up as little as possible.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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23-11-2016, 11:28 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 11:10 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 10:27 AM)Velvet Wrote:  How can one judge morals value while being a relativist? Isn't that completely incoherent?

Seriously: WHAT IS THE OTHER OPTION?

Don't do it, obviously.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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23-11-2016, 11:28 AM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2016 11:31 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 04:11 AM)Velvet Wrote:  Hey guys, I hope you are all felling wonderful today, especially Jenny Bowing, so, a couple weeks ago one of my students, knowing I'm an atheist as him, asked about the bases for our morality.

(Keep in mind that english is not my first language, and try to ignore any horrendous errors that you might find)

What he was actually after tho (he told me this week) was an answer to this video:


Here we see W.L. Craig raping an unprepared guy, following with some maieutic... (Look at the way he looks at the guy like he is a tasty prey)

Well, i'm not a philosopher so I thought it was wise to think and research a bit more on the topic... and I found some very interesting piece of paper: a letter from an atheist to W.L. Craig about this same issue.

Now, I don't know if this is a fake from Craig, and even if it isn't it could still be someone trolling Craig...

The letter talks about the moral implications of setting morality as a social/cultural or/+ evolutionary construct, in which one who understands that both of those (or any combination of those) would not be objective, and ultimately, not meaningful as a basis for any moral judgment.

As a honest thinker, one is forced to apply skepticism to his moral intuitious, and until he is able to find rational justification he shouldn't regard them as anything more than his personal opinion, maybe learned from culture or "infused" by natural selection.

Then, now basically a Nihilist, one is unable to dish any moral judgment, and is rendered incapable of honestly telling why we shouldn't torture a child.

There is any validity to refer to right and wrong using bases of actions that maximize humanity's long term survival? Why it would be the case?

There's any validity to refer to right and wrong using bases of actions that minimize human suffering?

I'm interested in knowing you guys take on this subject, have you ever thought about it? What are your basis to say action X is wrong?

There is no simple answer, (but whatever it is, you can be sure it's NOT what the fool WLC charges his audiences to hear it is.)

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-ethics/
These people are two that I admire, (Noddings and Gilligan), and don't have their heads up theist asses. But as Dom said, our ethical requirements stem from a "duty to care".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-11-2016, 11:45 AM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2016 11:54 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 11:28 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no simple answer, (but whatever it is, you can be sure it's NOT what the fool WLC charges his audiences to hear it is.)

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-ethics/
These people are two that I admire, (Noddings and Gilligan), and don't have their heads up theist asses. But as Dom said, our ethical requirements stem from a "duty to care".

Well, if Craig is or isn't an idiot is not relevant, he is right on this one subject when he points that a relativist shouldn't be able to make judgment of moral value.

Its as much incoherent as himself when he uses the cosmological argument to point that everything needs a cause and then shortly after says that god is eternal, I know exactly who he is, and the kind of tactics he uses... but he is right on this one.

If I affirm right and wrong are relative, and shortly after I say that the genocides on the bible were wrong, I'm being incoherent, and that's indeed what most atheists do (including me, before noticing that I was being incoherent with my own views), hold a incoherent standard when judging moral value that relativism just doesn't comport.

1: Good and Evil and completely subjective, social and/or evolutionary constructs.

2: Dropping slavery is a moral improvement.

A person shouldn't hold view 1 and 2 at the same time, its nonsensical, think about it for a second, if 1 is true, then our morality is no different than our taste for food, our color preference or any other opinion that we might have, we shouldn't be able to tell if something is wrong or not on that kind of basis.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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23-11-2016, 12:09 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 11:45 AM)Velvet Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 11:28 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no simple answer, (but whatever it is, you can be sure it's NOT what the fool WLC charges his audiences to hear it is.)

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-ethics/
These people are two that I admire, (Noddings and Gilligan), and don't have their heads up theist asses. But as Dom said, our ethical requirements stem from a "duty to care".

Well, if Craig is or isn't an idiot is not relevant, he is right on this one subject when he points that a relativist shouldn't be able to make judgment of moral value.

Its as much incoherent as himself when he uses the cosmological argument to point that everything needs a cause and then shortly after says that god is eternal, I know exactly who he is, and the kind of tactics he uses... but he is right on this one.

If I affirm right and wrong are relative, and shortly after I say that the genocides on the bible were wrong, I'm being incoherent, and that's indeed what most atheists do (including me, before noticing that I was being incoherent with my own views), hold a incoherent standard when judging moral value that relativism just doesn't comport.

1: Good and Evil and completely subjective, social and/or evolutionary constructs.

2: Dropping slavery is a moral improvement.

A person shouldn't hold view 1 and 2 at the same time, its nonsensical, think about it for a second, if 1 is true, then our morality is no different than our taste for food, our color preference or any other opinion that we might have, we shouldn't be able to tell if something is wrong or not on that kind of basis.

I'd say dropping slavery is a moral improvement because nobody wants to be a slave. Just like raping a child is immoral because nobody wants their child to be raped. Also, it causes major problems later in life for the child. These things are self evident, unless you've got a mental disorder.
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23-11-2016, 12:15 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 11:45 AM)Velvet Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 11:28 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no simple answer, (but whatever it is, you can be sure it's NOT what the fool WLC charges his audiences to hear it is.)

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-ethics/
These people are two that I admire, (Noddings and Gilligan), and don't have their heads up theist asses. But as Dom said, our ethical requirements stem from a "duty to care".

Well, if Craig is or isn't an idiot is not relevant, he is right on this one subject when he points that a relativist shouldn't be able to make judgment of moral value.

Its as much incoherent as himself when he uses the cosmological argument to point that everything needs a cause and then shortly after says that god is eternal, I know exactly who he is, and the kind of tactics he uses... but he is right on this one.

If I affirm right and wrong are relative, and shortly after I say that the genocides on the bible were wrong, I'm being incoherent, and that's indeed what most atheists do (including me, before noticing that I was being incoherent with my own views), hold a incoherent standard when judging moral value that relativism just doesn't comport.

1: Good and Evil and completely subjective, social and/or evolutionary constructs.

2: Dropping slavery is a moral improvement.

A person shouldn't hold view 1 and 2 at the same time, its nonsensical, think about it for a second, if 1 is true, then our morality is no different than our taste for food, our color preference or any other opinion that we might have, we shouldn't be able to tell if something is wrong or not on that kind of basis.

Have you read anything on secular humanism or other concepts of morality without religion?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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