Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
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30-12-2016, 06:32 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(30-12-2016 12:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  When are Tomasia and Matt going to agree that people can feel guilty in obviously learned situations (rather than biological) is situations such as having been taught to believe that masturbation is immoral, or sex being immoral when not trying to make babies or working on sabbath being immoral? There is no biological underpinnings to this, it is all cognitive, all learned, you don't even need empathy for these examples.

I absolutely agree with you on this. A person can feel guilty for all sorts of things.

As far as there being no biological underpinnings, I think that's going a bit far. We're biological organisms, and I don't think we can escape our biological underpinnings. Perhaps all these crazy beliefs are simply a natural process that happens when biological organisms reach a level of intelligence that allows them to contemplate these things.
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30-12-2016, 08:18 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(30-12-2016 06:27 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Cognitive OR emotional experience. My only point is that feeling the emotion of guilt is compatible with moral nihilism. A moral nihilist can have a negative emotional response when they realize they've violated their own standards of conduct (preferences), and we can correctly label that emotion as guilt. It's compatible in the cognitive sense as well though, because a moral nihilist can hold a belief that he has violated his own standards of conduct (preferences). I guess that belief would be an example of a cognitive experience we could describe as guilt.

Even if we agree that guilt requires belief, it most certainly doesn't require a belief in real morality.

This brings us full circle.
Let's say that you are a moral nihilst, and lets say that you have determined that you are feeling guilt for a choice or action that you have made.
OK, so this "preference"that you have violated isn't a moral preference, because you don't believe in morality.

This "preference" isn't simply deciding to have something other than your favourite soda drink, because, let's face it, who the hell feels guilt for chosing to drink something other than their favourite drink?

So what type of "preference" is it that you are talking about?

(30-12-2016 06:27 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  When normally developed adult humans maliciously or neglectfully harm another person, they feel a negative emotion that we call guilt.

When you say "maliciously", why on earth would they feel guilt if their intent was to harm? They have achieved their goal, why would they feel guilty, unless of course they believe it is wrong to hurt others. They are regretting doing something that they believe to be wrong even if they are scared to use the word "wrong"

(30-12-2016 06:27 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  When some is lacking this negative emotional response, we label them a psychopath.
No we don't. There are many circumstances where we accept maliciously harming of people without labelling people as psychopaths. People go to war with intent to kill the opposition, people go into combat sports with intent to hurt their opponent, jealous lovers hurt their competition, vigilanties hurt people that they see as a threat to society.

(30-12-2016 06:27 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with being a psychopath, but lack of guilt is one of the primary defining characteristics.
Nice that you are continuing on this silly path of accusing me of being something. You have no idea.


(30-12-2016 06:27 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  If you feel negative emotion after yelling at your kids, that's guilt.
Empathy and recognision that there is a more suitable course of action does not equate to guilt. Please listen to me rather than telling me what emotions I am experiencing.
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30-12-2016, 10:47 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(30-12-2016 12:30 AM)Stevil Wrote:  ...
You think that pleasure is some kind of inbuilt biological response, rather than some self gratification for doing something you believe to be nice?
...

My 'rathering' alarm just went off.

Why not both?

(30-12-2016 06:32 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  ...
As far as there being no biological underpinnings, I think that's going a bit far. We're biological organisms, and I don't think we can escape our biological underpinnings. Perhaps all these crazy beliefs are simply a natural process that happens when biological organisms reach a level of intelligence that allows them to contemplate these things.

Abso-fuckin-lutely. I am working on the diagrams for exactly that right now. Big Grin

And, btw, called it (in post #13:

(23-11-2016 07:46 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 07:41 AM)Velvet Wrote:  ...
...
Regarding "if this thread is dead by then", don't worry about that... if St.Evil and Matt Finney get on board we've got about another 20 pages to go.

Big Grin

I'm on the 20 posts per page view ... if a morality thread doesn't make to 400 posts ... we've failed!

Wink

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31-12-2016, 03:42 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(30-12-2016 10:47 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(30-12-2016 12:30 AM)Stevil Wrote:  ...
You think that pleasure is some kind of inbuilt biological response, rather than some self gratification for doing something you believe to be nice?
...

My 'rathering' alarm just went off.

Why not both?
Each instance could be one or the other or both even. I don't know the answers, but I do recognise that belief and worldview is a big thing. A person could give $10 to a homeless person and feel that it is waste as it will probably go on booze or smoke or they could give the money and get big warm fuzzies thinking they have personally done something wonderful. We do have the power with our own mindset to induce these emotions within ourselves.
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31-12-2016, 03:49 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
5 to go.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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31-12-2016, 04:05 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(31-12-2016 03:49 AM)Banjo Wrote:  5 to go.

... or they could just buy some chocolates. Dodgy

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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31-12-2016, 04:07 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(31-12-2016 04:05 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(31-12-2016 03:49 AM)Banjo Wrote:  5 to go.

... or they could just buy some chocolates. Dodgy

C'mon mate, we're nearly there.

What is the basis of our judgement is the question, right? Experience.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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31-12-2016, 05:17 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(30-12-2016 08:18 PM)Stevil Wrote:  This brings us full circle.
Let's say that you are a moral nihilst, and lets say that you have determined that you are feeling guilt for a choice or action that you have made.
OK, so this "preference"that you have violated isn't a moral preference, because you don't believe in morality.

This "preference" isn't simply deciding to have something other than your favourite soda drink, because, let's face it, who the hell feels guilt for chosing to drink something other than their favourite drink?

So what type of "preference" is it that you are talking about?

I would call it a behavioral preference. There is no question that we all have preferred behavior, both for ourselves and others. It's important to keep in mind that the preferred behavior for others might be very different than preferred behavior for the self. For example, a person might prefer to be aggressive and dominant, but prefer to surround himself with people who are passive and submissive. When you yell at your kids, you recognize that this is not your preferred behavior, and if you feel a negative emotional response, I think we could accurately label that "guilt".

(30-12-2016 08:18 PM)Stevil Wrote:  When you say "maliciously", why on earth would they feel guilt if their intent was to harm? They have achieved their goal, why would they feel guilty, unless of course they believe it is wrong to hurt others. They are regretting doing something that they believe to be wrong even if they are scared to use the word "wrong"

Give me a fucking break dude. Think back to when you were a kid in school. Did you ever take part (maliciously) in bullying a kid and then later feel bad about it? Did you ever see a kid get bullied but do nothing about it (neglect) and later feel bad about not telling anyone or trying to help?

One doesn't have to classify the bullying as wrong either. They could simply identify it as behavior that they prefer to avoid, or behavior they prefer to interfere with in attempt to stop.

(30-12-2016 08:18 PM)Stevil Wrote:  No we don't. There are many circumstances where we accept maliciously harming of people without labelling people as psychopaths. People go to war with intent to kill the opposition, people go into combat sports with intent to hurt their opponent, jealous lovers hurt their competition, vigilanties hurt people that they see as a threat to society.

War is a bad example because there are lots of reasons one might engage in war. Let's look at the example of Hitler. Do you think it's fair to say that Hitler was probably a psychopath? I don't think it would necessarily be psychopathic to want to stop a psychopath like Hitler though....

Combat sports is another bad example. Fighters don't want to cause permanent damage to their opponents, and if they do, we still call them a psychopath.

Jealous lovers do hurt their competition, and if a man kills another man who he sees as competition, and feels no guilt or remorse, we still label them a psychopath.

Vigilante is another bad example, because it obviously doesn't require a psychopath to want to stop/kill a murderer.

(30-12-2016 08:18 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Nice that you are continuing on this silly path of accusing me of being something. You have no idea.

I'm not accusing you of being a psychopath.

You mention that sometimes you lose control of your emotions and yell at your kids. Lets suppose that another man loses control of his emotions and beats his child to death. He didn't intend to kill the child, but it happened anyways. If he doesn't feel negative emotional response, we would probably classify him as psychopath.

(30-12-2016 06:27 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Empathy and recognision that there is a more suitable course of action does not equate to guilt. Please listen to me rather than telling me what emotions I am experiencing.

I think you're mislabeling the emotions you are experiencing, that's what this is all about isn't it?

The thing is, it's not "more suitable", it's simply "what is preferred by stevil."

When a person violates his/her preferred behavior that results in harming another person, and that person also feels accompanying negative emotion, it's guilt. At least Tomasia and I would call it guilt.
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31-12-2016, 07:51 AM
Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(30-12-2016 01:01 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-12-2016 07:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The feelings predate beliefs. If the feelings had to wait till we formed a language, and subscribed to a variety of beliefs about morality, we'd all be dead already
I don't accept that beliefs require language.


Do chimanzees and dolphins believe some things are morally wrong?

Do they believe in the theory of evolution? Do they believe Jesus is the Messiah?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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31-12-2016, 07:53 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(30-12-2016 10:47 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I'm on the 20 posts per page view ... if a morality thread doesn't make to 400 posts ... we've failed!

Wink

Success!

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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