Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
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02-01-2017, 04:22 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(01-01-2017 11:08 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  This image isn't mine, and "empathy", depending on how it's defined might be more fitting as neutral or negative, but hopefully this helps.
[Image: negative_emotions1.jpg]
Yeah, I'd say that it is hard to distinguish between all the emotions. Guilt might not even be a base emotion, it might be empathy, with regret with belief that you have done something wrong, something for which your subconscience struggles to forgive yourself for, something for which you believe you need forgiveness for. And hence this conflict leads to self punishment a.k.a. guilt.
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02-01-2017, 09:07 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(02-01-2017 04:22 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Yeah, I'd say that it is hard to distinguish between all the emotions. Guilt might not even be a base emotion, it might be empathy, with regret with belief that you have done something wrong, something for which your subconscience struggles to forgive yourself for, something for which you believe you need forgiveness for. And hence this conflict leads to self punishment a.k.a. guilt.

I think you're problem is that your conflating empathy with other emotions triggered by it. Like conflating the hatred your might feel towards someone who hurt your daughter. While that hatred might have result from the fact that they hurt some you care for (felt empathy towards), it would be a mistake to conflate hatred with empathy.

Just like for some people behaving in non-empathetic manner, perhaps a mean spirited manner, might illicit guilt. It would be a mistake to conflate it all as empathy, when distinct sensations, feelings are involved.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-01-2017, 09:27 AM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2017 09:30 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(31-12-2016 12:37 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I would think that they believe fish is tasty. I think that they believe that they need to be in water rather than on the beach to survive. I think the trained ones believe that if they do a trick they will get rewarded with a fishy treat.

I don't think any of these examples are true. The treats are there to manipulate the dogs reward center in their brain. After awhile performing certain tricks no longer require you to give them a treat. They repeat the same behavior absent of any actual reward, but merely because the reward centers in their brain produces a pleasant behavior when repeating that behavior.

Such as I gave my dog treats when he was a puppy every time he went into his cage, so that he associated being in the cage with positive sensations, and feelings. He doesn't have to believe a thing, he just has to feel it. Same goes for potty training, initially he was given treats every time he went outside to potty. But I no longer have to do that, because it feels more internally rewarding for him to do it outside, rather than inside the apt.

But there's room for argument here.

But I'm curious as to what you believe other animals don't believe. Would you agree that they don't believe God exists, that Jesus is the Messiah?

Do you believe that chimpanzees believe some actions and behaviors are morally wrong?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-01-2017, 09:56 AM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2017 01:43 PM by DLJ.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(31-12-2016 12:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Interesting examples, also that last example is very USA centric. I'm a kiwi by the way.

Yes, Maori might be a more NZ centric example.

Quote:People also feel empathy more towards people they know than those that they don't and those that they associate with rather than those that they don't.

People's empathy is more likely to be elicited by those that look like them, who they can relate better with, who the shares a variety of common beliefs and interest and experiences with, etc...


Quote:But empathy is not guilt. We are talking about guilt, which is the belief that you have done something wrong.

We are talking about the feeling of empathy and the feeling of guilt. And i was pointing out that one of your criticisms of guilt, where you appealed to the cultural conditioning components, is pretty much true for every emotion, including empathy.

The feeling of guilt seems to be the crux of your distinction between morality and other subjective spheres, and emotions. And I just been pointing out that those distinctions don't actually exists. We're just comparing one set of subjective positive sensations to another.

Quote:With Matt I'm a bit confused as to his definition of guilt, I suspect he is conflating empathy with guilt.

I think you're conflating empathy with a wide variety of other emotions. Particularly other emotions that might have been triggered by our empathy for others. Our empathy for others might result in us feeling a wide variety of emotions, such as hatred, and anger, or sadness, and even guilt.

Quote:Or perhaps he's not 100% convinced that he cannot do anything wrong. Or perhaps he gets an irrational emotional response due to his previous life and conditioning as a moralist.

Do you see your own emotions as always rational? Do you have irrational emotions? Ever feel irrational guilt?

Quote:It is apparent that MAtt believes, if you don't feel guilt then you must be a psycopath so he certainly has an incentive to believe he feels guilt.

That's like saying, that if a person points out that psychopaths don't feel empathy, than they have an incentive to believe they feel empathy. When in reality what they believe has nothing to do with it, either they feel empathy of they don't, or they feel guilt or they don't.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-01-2017, 12:35 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(02-01-2017 09:27 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But I'm curious as to what you believe other animals don't believe. Would you agree that they don't believe God exists, that Jesus is the Messiah?

Do you believe that chimpanzees believe some actions and behaviors are morally wrong?
We wouldn't function without beliefs.

That which we hold to be facts are beliefs. They are "justified" beliefs.

There are also beliefs which we hold to be true which are unjustified but we "trust" the source and either can't be bothered to verify as the result has little consequence or we have not much evidence at our disposal to verify claims, such as historical claims.

The third type of belief is with regards to optimistic thinking, where we close our minds and don't consider all the plausible alternatives. Religion falls into this category.

So a dog, or a dolphin doing tricks is because of belief, a dolphin not stranding itself on the beach is because of belief, a cat not jumping into a lake is because of belief.


The Jesus myth is human centric. A dog would never believe that their god came to earth as a human. Would never belief that their god picked out or created Adam as a human and hence human decendancy is special. It is obvious that Christianity is a human construct.

Do chimpanzees (or bonobos) believe some actions and behaviors are morally wrong? Their behaviours would show that they have some social rules, whether they are amoral or moral believers is hard to determine as these positions can be indistinguishable without being able to ask the subject what they believe.
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04-01-2017, 01:00 PM
Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(04-01-2017 12:35 PM)Stevil Wrote:  We wouldn't function without beliefs.

That which we hold to be facts are beliefs. They are "justified" beliefs.

There are also beliefs which we hold to be true which are unjustified but we "trust" the source and either can't be bothered to verify as the result has little consequence or we have not much evidence at our disposal to verify claims, such as historical claims.

The third type of belief is with regards to optimistic thinking, where we close our minds and don't consider all the plausible alternatives. Religion falls into this category.

So a dog, or a dolphin doing tricks is because of belief, a dolphin not stranding itself on the beach is because of belief, a cat not jumping into a lake is because of belief.

You seem to be using the term belief in a strange and not entirely dicipherable way. Perhaps a few questions will help.

Do all living organisms posses beliefs? Does a flower posses a belief that exposure to water and sunlight help it to grow?

Do ants have beliefs? Do lobsters and fish have beliefs?

If not, why not?


Quote:It is obvious that Christianity is a human construct.

And morality isn't?

Quote:Their behaviours would show that they have some social rules, whether they are amoral or moral believers is hard to determine as these positions can be indistinguishable without being able to ask the subject what they believe.

Yet you seem able to claim a variety of things that cats and other non- human animals believe, without being able to ask them whether they believe this or not.




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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-01-2017, 01:04 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(02-01-2017 09:27 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Do you believe that chimpanzees believe some actions and behaviors are morally wrong?

What the hell has this to do with anything ?

Do dolphins like chocolate ?

Fuck

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-01-2017, 01:07 PM
Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(04-01-2017 01:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What the hell has this to do with anything ?

It has to do with Stevil clarifying his views on beliefs.





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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-01-2017, 01:19 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(04-01-2017 01:07 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 01:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What the hell has this to do with anything ?

It has to do with Stevil clarifying his views on beliefs.

You didn't answer the questions about dolphins, Tomato.

You asked me the same question about chimpanzees. I never said anything about them. What sort of rabbit hole are you hoping to drag this idiotic nonsense ?

You've already demonstrated your complete ignorance of the fields of Ethics and Philosophy, and the fact you never ever took even one course in Ethics. (Of course why would you ? Your (not *you're*, you really should take an English class, you're is the contraction of "you are", not the way you used it above), Fundie Fake Foolish University didn't teach Ethics, did they ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-01-2017, 11:59 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(04-01-2017 01:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You seem to be using the term belief in a strange and not entirely dicipherable way. Perhaps a few questions will help.

Do all living organisms posses beliefs? Does a flower posses a belief that exposure to water and sunlight help it to grow?

Do ants have beliefs? Do lobsters and fish have beliefs?

If not, why not?
Belief requires a brain and consciousness, so that rules out plants.
Beliefs are things that we hold to be true.

We generally believe that the things that our eyes sense, exist outside of ourselves.
We see a stone coming our way, we dodge because we believe that it will hit us.
A dog sees a cat and it chases after it because it believes that the cat exists and is worth chasing after.

There are degrees of belief:
a) That which we hold to be facts are beliefs. They are "justified" beliefs.
b) There are also beliefs which we hold to be true which are unjustified but we "trust" the source and either can't be bothered to verify as the result has little consequence or we have not much evidence at our disposal to verify claims, such as historical claims.
c) The third type of belief is with regards to optimistic thinking, where we close our minds and don't consider all the plausible alternatives. Religion falls into this category.


Examples of a) might be:
a1) Gravity exists as a consequence of massive objects.
a2) Oil is lighter than water.
a3) The boiling point of pure water is 100 degrees Celsius.
a4) I will die if I jump into a pot of boiling water.

These things we believe to be true and we accept that there is strong evidence for. We consider these beliefs to be facts and they are verifiable and falsifiable.

Examples of b) might be:
b1) My wife tells me she just ate a biscuit.
b2) I just saw my wife walk past me.

For item b1, my wife is a trusted source of certain information. If she tells me she just ate a biscuit, I believe her because it is a mundane claim which has no consequences.

For b2) I trust my eyes and my short term memory.

Examples of c) might be:
c1) some Christian preacher tells me that Jesus died and came back to life
c2) some Maori tells me that Maui fished up NZ with his grandmother's jaw as a fishing hook.
c3) I tell my daughter I believe she will do well in the dance competition

Is this clear enough for you Tomasia?


(04-01-2017 01:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:It is obvious that Christianity is a human construct.

And morality isn't?
Christianity is all about a human-man god. About humans being made in the likeness of a god, about humans following the god's rules, about humans being judged and massacred by the angry god. About some humans going to heaven with the angry god.

Morality is about a belief in right and wrong behavior. Not necessarily the behavior of humans.

(04-01-2017 01:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Their behaviours would show that they have some social rules, whether they are amoral or moral believers is hard to determine as these positions can be indistinguishable without being able to ask the subject what they believe.

Yet you seem able to claim a variety of things that cats and other non- human animals believe, without being able to ask them whether they believe this or not.
I am not telling you if the animals have moral beliefs or not, I am merely telling you that they do have beliefs. They believe their eyes and ears and noses, they believe that some animals are edible, they believe that some situations are dangerous.
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