Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
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08-01-2017, 12:12 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(06-01-2017 08:56 PM)mordant Wrote:  Yes, and I'm not even sure empathy should be classified as an emotion. It prompts an emotional response, but at base it is simply mirror neurons firing, allowing you to imagine what another is feeling, or how some action you might do would make them feel, or how they must feel about something that happened to them.

I’d say empathy would be classified as emotional relatability. But what actual emotions are elicited would be based on context, sometimes sympathy, sometime anger, etc…

Quote:There is no particular emotion associated with any of this, rather it is recognition and mirroring. The emotion, if any, that arises from that depends on the context. You are probably thinking of empathy more in terms of how you feel when you watch one of those TV commercials showing abused puppies or cute kids at the Shriner's Hospital asking for donations, where you feel keenly the suffering or need of others.

I am, and in the context in which we’re discussing, it’s empathy along these lines as well, such as when speaking of guilt over harming someone.

Quote:But what about the negative aspects of empathy, such as your ability to imagine what it's like to live in a mansion and drive a Mazerati and to feel jealousy, want, greed as a result? That's empathy too. Empathy simply makes one being relatable to another through faculties of imagination.

I’d say that would be a rather strange way or speaking of empathy. A wealthy sociopath might desire to keep up with his neighbor, get jealous over his new car etc…, but yet we might say he lacks empathy.

While I’ll agree that mirror neurons are often involved in our desires, like greed, keeping up with joneses, that many times we find ourselves desiring something new, it’s the result of our mirror neurons responding to someone who desired it first. While perhaps we may be able to define empathy broad enough it include any response that triggers our mirror neurons, we’d likely be speaking about empathy in a particularly confusing, non-conventional way, and not particularly in regards to the ways it’s being used here either, in discussing morality, and guilt.

While I think you raised a variety of interesting points, some things to consider, I don’t think they’ve particularly changed anything that’s been previously discussed.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-01-2017, 06:43 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
You equate empathy with anger?

xianity is a dangerous belief system.

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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09-01-2017, 08:42 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(09-01-2017 06:43 AM)Banjo Wrote:  You equate empathy with anger?

xianity is a dangerous belief system.

As a result of empathizing with someone I love, I might feel angry towards someone or something that hurt her.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-01-2017, 12:48 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(08-01-2017 12:12 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  A wealthy sociopath might desire to keep up with his neighbor, get jealous over his new car etc…, but yet we might say he lacks empathy.
Most sociopaths can have empathy for themselves (including what they lack or don't have that they want), because they are relatable only to themselves. Sometimes they can even have empathy for their future selves, although there's reason to believe that's often lacking as sociopathy is usually associated with poor impulse control.

At any rate, it is the lack of empathy for others that defines sociopathy. I was referring to a normal person being able to imagine how a filthy rich person experiences life and being jealous of that. I would suppose that a sociopath experiences it more like seeing some bright shiny objects they want to take for themselves and would have no compunction about doing so. Because you and I are not sociopaths it's hard to remember that for a sociopath this is utterly impersonal and clinical, it doesn't involve jealousy, only personal desire. They view someone else has the thing they desire as a practical barrier, not something to be jealous of or resent.

It would be interesting to study how mirror neurons (don't) work in sociopaths. My guess is that they exist but only fire in certain contexts. There is probably something besides the mirror neurons themselves that is required to enable empathy for others, for non-humans, etc. Probably a bit like having the gene required but the gene not expressing, being shut off for most purposes. Maybe a sociopath cannot "mirror" unless they see their own self-interest, they can't make the leap to valuing the self-interest and needs of others as AKIN TO their own.
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10-01-2017, 05:12 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(09-01-2017 12:48 PM)mordant Wrote:  Most sociopaths can have empathy for themselves (including what they lack or don't have that they want), because they are relatable only to themselves.

What you are talking about is not empathy.

empathy definition: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

When we are talking about the ability to understand and share in the feelings of the self, we are not talking about empathy.

(09-01-2017 12:48 PM)mordant Wrote:  Sometimes they can even have empathy for their future selves, although there's reason to believe that's often lacking as sociopathy is usually associated with poor impulse control.

Refer to the above.

(09-01-2017 12:48 PM)mordant Wrote:  At any rate, it is the lack of empathy for others that defines sociopathy.

Yeah, but since empathy only deals with others, you can leave "for others" out of that statement.

(09-01-2017 12:48 PM)mordant Wrote:  I was referring to a normal person being able to imagine how a filthy rich person experiences life and being jealous of that. I would suppose that a sociopath experiences it more like seeing some bright shiny objects they want to take for themselves and would have no compunction about doing so. Because you and I are not sociopaths it's hard to remember that for a sociopath this is utterly impersonal and clinical, it doesn't involve jealousy, only personal desire. They view someone else has the thing they desire as a practical barrier, not something to be jealous of or resent.

You have to remember, empathy is not a light switch, it's a continuum. On one end of the spectrum you have people who are afraid to harm an insect (we could call this the 100% point), on the other you have murdering psychopaths (we could call this the 0% point). Even you among psychopaths you have lots of variation. For example, it's estimated that there are few million psychopaths in the U.S., but it's estimated that only about 35-50 are active serial killers.

I guess where I'm going with this is I think you are lumping all sociopaths into one group and I think that's a mistake. I don't think it's impossible for someone who is considered a sociopath to feel jealousy. It's not like there are those who can empathize and those who can't. It's a spectrum and we all fall somewhere on it. I think it's only on the very extreme end of sociopathy who actually have zero empathy.

Below, I will list out several different points on the spectrum of empathy. A soldier who enjoys torturing and killing his enemies might be classified as a sociopath, but can still have empathy for his fellow soldiers and friends and family. I would argue he could experience jealousy as well. And, I don't think we should even view psychopathy as a negative either. Psychopaths are overrepresented in positions of power such as business CEO's and in politics. Anyways, here's a brief list of different levels of empathy people can have.

1. People who extend their empathy to bugs. Those who are afraid to kill even insects. These people might avoid driving in cars or even walking across a grassy lawn.

2. Typical vegans. Those who are against killing animals for food and/or leather, but will happily drive in cars and fly in airplanes, and in the process kill thousands if not millions of insects and spiders, and perhaps countless dozens of small to medium sized animals.

3. People who prefer that animals are not killed for food, but are fine with enslaving animals that produce food without having to die. Like taking chickens' eggs, or cows' milk.

4. People who are fine with animals being killed for food, and will eat meat themselves, but won't do the killing, and has a hard time even watching someone else do the killing.

5. People who are willing to kill certain animal themselves, like fish or chickens, but can't kill more intelligent animals like pigs and cows.

6. People who will kill more intelligent animals like horses and cows, but would still prefer to not kill highly intelligent animals like chimps, gorillas, or dolphins.

7. Those who are willing to participate in torturous factory farming practices.

8. Those who are willing to kill other humans that they consider to be of another tribe/group.

9. Those who are willing to torture and/or kill members of another tribe/group.

10. Those who are willing to torture and/or kill members of one's own tribe.

11. Those who are willing to torture and/or kill members of his own family.
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10-01-2017, 07:04 AM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(10-01-2017 05:12 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  ...
10. Those who are willing to torture and/or kill members of one's own tribe.

11. Those who are willing to torture and/or kill members of his own family.

You missed one...

10a. Those who are willing to torture and/or kill members of the tribe they married in to.

Angel

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10-01-2017, 05:18 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(09-01-2017 08:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  As a result of empathizing with someone I love, I might feel angry towards someone or something that hurt her.

That takes xianity for you to feel that?

Swine.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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10-01-2017, 05:36 PM
Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(10-01-2017 05:18 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(09-01-2017 08:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  As a result of empathizing with someone I love, I might feel angry towards someone or something that hurt her.

That takes xianity for you to feel that?

No, it just takes you being a typical human being.

Quote:Swine.

I'll just chalk that up as the meds talking.




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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-01-2017, 05:38 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(10-01-2017 05:36 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, it just takes you being a typical human being.

Then empathy has ZERO to do with xianity???

My what a surprise.


Quote:Swine.

I'll just chalk that up as the meds talking.

Actually, my opinion of you has fallen so low, swine does not cover it.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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10-01-2017, 05:41 PM
Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(10-01-2017 05:38 PM)Banjo Wrote:  [quote='Tomasia' pid='1116710' dateline='1484091403']


No, it just takes you being a typical human being.

Then empathy has ZERO to do with xianity???

My what a surprise.

Who said anything about empathy having to do with Christianity? Are you just imagining arguments in your head?


Quote:Actually, my opinion of you has fallen so low, swine does not cover it.

All right buddy, whatever floats your boat.




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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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