Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
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23-11-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 11:45 AM)Velvet Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 11:28 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no simple answer, (but whatever it is, you can be sure it's NOT what the fool WLC charges his audiences to hear it is.)

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-ethics/
These people are two that I admire, (Noddings and Gilligan), and don't have their heads up theist asses. But as Dom said, our ethical requirements stem from a "duty to care".

Well, if Craig is or isn't an idiot is not relevant, he is right on this one subject when he points that a relativist shouldn't be able to make judgment of moral value.

Its as much incoherent as himself when he uses the cosmological argument to point that everything needs a cause and then shortly after says that god is eternal, I know exactly who he is, and the kind of tactics he uses... but he is right on this one.

If I affirm right and wrong are relative, and shortly after I say that the genocides on the bible were wrong, I'm being incoherent, and that's indeed what most atheists do (including me, before noticing that I was being incoherent with my own views), hold a incoherent standard when judging moral value that relativism just doesn't comport.

1: Good and Evil and completely subjective, social and/or evolutionary constructs.

2: Dropping slavery is a moral improvement.

A person shouldn't hold view 1 and 2 at the same time, its nonsensical, think about it for a second, if 1 is true, then our morality is no different than our taste for food, our color preference or any other opinion that we might have, we shouldn't be able to tell if something is wrong or not on that kind of basis.

Of course, we can give our subjective judgement about the morality of the biblical god. So I can indeed say that my SUBJECTIVE judgement is that killing all life on the planet is wrong.

All that someone like Craig can do is say that it isn't wrong. Which side of this moral equation would you prefer to be on?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-11-2016, 12:33 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
I would like to further assert that anyone that doesn't understand that morality flows from a rational agreement between humans about how we should behave, a person that thinks an ancient rule book is where we should derive our laws, doesn't deserve a seat at the table when we decide to make laws that govern us.

Religion has hijacked the idea of morality for thousands of years, it's well past time to close the chapter on this unfortunate part of our primitive past.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-11-2016, 12:33 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 11:45 AM)Velvet Wrote:  1: Good and Evil and completely subjective, social and/or evolutionary constructs.

2: Dropping slavery is a moral improvement.

A person shouldn't hold view 1 and 2 at the same time, its nonsensical, think about it for a second, if 1 is true, then our morality is no different than our taste for food, our color preference or any other opinion that we might have, we shouldn't be able to tell if something is wrong or not on that kind of basis.

Yes. One is 100% true. Stalin killed millions of people and the cosmos did not give a singe fuck.

We have established that Objective Morality does not exist. If it did it would apply WLC's god as well as us. That's what "objective" means.

Do you accept that we can look at the acts you mentioned (slavery and child rape) and determine to some extent the damage they cause to individual people and society as a whole?

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23-11-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 11:45 AM)Velvet Wrote:  ... he is right on this one subject when he points that a relativist shouldn't be able to make judgment of moral value.

No. He is totally WRONG, and on a practical level the best ethicists in the world do not agree with either you or him. EVERY moral situation is relative to it's specifics and situation. It's why every hospital in the civilized world has an ethics committee... so they can discuss and come to understand what the ethical options are in different situations. There are no moral absolutes that can anticipate every nuanced situation. Is taking a human life wrong ? Sometimes it can by justified, and even the idiot Craig would agree with that if he were forced to face facts.

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23-11-2016, 03:46 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2016 03:56 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 01:05 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 11:45 AM)Velvet Wrote:  ... he is right on this one subject when he points that a relativist shouldn't be able to make judgment of moral value.

No. He is totally WRONG, and on a practical level the best ethicists in the world do not agree with either you or him. EVERY moral situation is relative to it's specifics and situation. It's why every hospital in the civilized world has an ethics committee... so they can discuss and come to understand what the ethical options are in different situations. There are no moral absolutes that can anticipate every nuanced situation. Is taking a human life wrong ? Sometimes it can by justified, and even the idiot Craig would agree with that if he were forced to face facts.

Sorry bucky, but you seem to be too fucky crazy decided to not even look what I'm talking about, because this (what you said) simply does't not address it.

I will try to spell it out for you:

I'm NOT defending that Craig is right on his view of morality, I'm only defending that he IS right when (and only when) he says:

Relative morality (that we all agree until now, and does not fucking matter if Craig does, but happens that he doesn`t) is not coherent with judgment of moral value

Because it makes your view of morality as a opinion witch would be a composite of natural and anthropological stuff, and this, not being absolute, magical and not even particularly insightful does not equip us to judge the very same thing of any other given person.

How the fuck you are going to use your morality to judge for other morality if they are relative?

Is like saying Christianity is wrong because Islam is right, having your own unsupported relative opinion of what you feel its right, DOES NOT EQUIP YOU, to judge other's unsupported relative opinions of what they feel its right.

That's the only thing that I'm saying that he is right.

Please, I cannot get any clearer than this, focus on what I'm saying, forget (even if only for now) you biases towards Craig being a religious nutjob.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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23-11-2016, 03:53 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 12:33 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Do you accept that we can look at the acts you mentioned (slavery and child rape) and determine to some extent the damage they cause to individual people and society as a whole?

Yes, what I don't accept is that looking at damage is what tells us right from wrong on any sense that it becomes more than ''just my opinion of what I like the world to be''.

So, having a opinion founded on any given random thing (damage to individual people and society as a whole, for example), does not equip you to judge any other person who has some other opinion of ''what they would like the world to be'', grounded on any other random fact.

You will not be determining they are wrong, you will just be determining that their views are not based on extent of damage to individual and society.

As long as they guy things this is NOT what matters for determining what is right from wrong, you have no way of making it be, you rely on people having the same opinion that you have so that you can show that your opinion its valid...

Understand?

If Tyrant guy Velvet thinks that doing damage will be good because (he goes and explain his reasons), we CAN'T say he is wrong, or morally inferior than us, he are only able to say that his reasons are not what we think the right and wrong should be grounded, which is the same he is doing about our view.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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23-11-2016, 04:12 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
In relativism, what Hitler did was not wrong, he was just contraire to patterns of sociological behavior ingrained on human species to not kill each other off...

Why would this ''patterns of sociological behavior ingrained on human species to not kill each other'' be what defines right from wrong?

And not whatever other reason that he decides to ground his view of right from wrong?

This is what I'm arguing about, AND NO the DOES NOT have anything to do with god, especially not with Yahweh in particular.




That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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23-11-2016, 04:38 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 03:53 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 12:33 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Do you accept that we can look at the acts you mentioned (slavery and child rape) and determine to some extent the damage they cause to individual people and society as a whole?

Yes, what I don't accept is that looking at damage is what tells us right from wrong on any sense that it becomes more than ''just my opinion of what I like the world to be''.

So, having a opinion founded on any given random thing (damage to individual people and society as a whole, for example), does not equip you to judge any other person who has some other opinion of ''what they would like the world to be'', grounded on any other random fact.

You will not be determining they are wrong, you will just be determining that their views are not based on extent of damage to individual and society.

As long as they guy things this is NOT what matters for determining what is right from wrong, you have no way of making it be, you rely on people having the same opinion that you have so that you can show that your opinion its valid...

Understand?

If Tyrant guy Velvet thinks that doing damage will be good because (he goes and explain his reasons), we CAN'T say he is wrong, or morally inferior than us, he are only able to say that his reasons are not what we think the right and wrong should be grounded, which is the same he is doing about our view.

Welcome to the plight of humanity, I don't find any of that extraordinary.

We CAN say it is wrong if enough people agree, that's exactly how we built our laws and society.

That's exactly why slavery is now considered by most to be wrong.

The victims spoke up, eventually enough people listened and said- "you know, they've got a point!".

Why do you have a problem with that?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-11-2016, 04:53 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2016 05:09 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 03:46 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Because it makes your view of morality as a opinion witch* would be a composite of natural and anthropological stuff, and this, not being absolute, magical and not even particularly insightful does not equip us to judge the very same thing of any other given person.

*which

1. You have on no way established that's even a good thing.
2. No two people have the same needs or values or standards or wishes about even the same things. They have the RIGHT to decide what is good for them. YOU don't get to decide anything, except for yourself.
3. The basics are spelled out in law, and we KNOW where that comes from, ultimately ... survival, and what promotes the general good of the group. People ARGUE and COME to agreement about what that is. There is nothing "objective" about any of that, and if there were, people would not be arguing over everything so much. It would all just be obvious.
4. You have never told us where your "objective morality" resides. Where did you find this magical morality ?

Quote:How the fuck you are going to use your morality to judge for other morality if they are relative?

You don't. Why should you decide for others. They must obey legal norms, which we have argued about and passed as law. Beyond that, it's none of your business.
See the UN Charter on Human Rights, for a start. If what you are saying is true, then why was that even necessary.

Quote:Is like saying Christianity is wrong because Islam is right, having your own unsupported relative opinion of what you feel its right, DOES NOT EQUIP YOU, to judge other's unsupported relative opinions of what they feel its right.

No. You're not even talking about "morality" there. Your analogy is false.

Quote:That's the only thing that I'm saying that he is right.

You don't even know what he's talking about, or even what you are talking about. The relative merits of one religion over the other is not "morality".

Quote:Please, I cannot get any clearer than this, focus on what I'm saying, forget (even if only for now) you biases towards Craig being a religious nutjob.

There's nothing to focus on, as you have not really said anything coherently about MORALITY, what it's uses are, or from where it arises. You spelled out nothing. It's not about Craig. He just happens to be wrong, and so are you.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-11-2016, 04:56 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 04:12 PM)Velvet Wrote:  In relativism, what Hitler did was not wrong, he was just contraire to patterns of sociological behavior ingrained on human species to not kill each other off...

Nope. What he did was wrong for the very reason you discount.
Tell us the objective standard you are championing, and tell us where you found it, and where it came from.

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