Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
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23-11-2016, 05:21 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 04:38 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Welcome to the plight of humanity, I don't find any of that extraordinary.

We CAN say it is wrong if enough people agree, that's exactly how we built our laws and society.

That's exactly why slavery is now considered by most to be wrong.

The victims spoke up, eventually enough people listened and said- "you know, they've got a point!".

Why do you have a problem with that?

Why should we be able to say something in wrong just because enough people agree?

If something isn't intrinsically wrong (and it isn't) then is not wrong at all, its just a matter of opinion...

If it is a matter of opinion how can we say someone is wrong? That person just hold a different opinion, someone is wrong for acting out of fashion? for being innovative in morality?

That means the first slave to think (or say) that slavery is a bad thing was wrong? (because at the time many people agree on it)

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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23-11-2016, 05:27 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 05:21 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Why should we be able to say something in wrong just because enough people agree?

If something isn't intrinsically wrong (and it isn't) then is not wrong at all, its just a matter of opinion...

If it is a matter of opinion how can we say someone is wrong? That person just hold a different opinion, someone is wrong for acting out of fashion? for being innovative in morality?

That means the first slave to think (or say) that slavery is a bad thing was wrong? (because at the time many people agree on it)

You really don't know very much about people do you ?

So you think your opinion of what's "intrinsically" wrong, (which you LEARNED from your culture and experiences, and if you had ever taken Anthropology 101 you would know is DIFFERENT in every culture) is the ONE that rules the day ?

I repeat. Where did YOU get your ideas about "intrinsically wrong" and why is that more correct than the next person's, and why should you impose that on someone else ?

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23-11-2016, 05:39 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 04:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nope. What he did was wrong for the very reason you discount.
Tell us the objective standard you are championing, and tell us where you found it, and where it came from.

So disagreeing with the opinion of many is what defines wrong then? Facepalm

Exchanging with you is very tiresome, you don't even know what we are talking about or what my stance really is, so why you are Leeroy Jenkins me over and over?

What I'm ''championing'' is not objetive standard or morality, you just think that I am because saying ''WLC'' triggers your sensitive biases towards that, everyone that posted here aside from you knows what I'm doing here.

I'm advocating that is incoherent to make judgments of moral value if you adopt that morality is social and/or evolutionary construct (which I'm completely ok with)

Inquistion says that we can make those judgments based on the opinion of the many, despite they being only well, opinion of the many, something we rarely give a fuck for, and this would create some very strange scenarios, like, the first slave to went against slavery being morally wrong in doing that.

Fatbaldhobbit (and some others) think that we can derive those judgments using our empathy in regards to harm, and our intuitive/self-evident value of prefering to avoid harm for ourselves is enough to constitute a basis for a judgement of value for the morality of others.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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23-11-2016, 05:42 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 05:27 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You really don't know very much about people do you ?

So you think your opinion of what's "intrinsically" wrong, (which you LEARNED from your culture and experiences, and if you had ever taken Anthropology 101 you would know is DIFFERENT in every culture) is the ONE that rules the day ?

I repeat. Where did YOU get your ideas about "intrinsically wrong" and why is that more correct than the next person's, and why should you impose that on someone else ?

Oh ffs just go defenestrate yourself please...

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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23-11-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 05:42 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 05:27 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You really don't know very much about people do you ?

So you think your opinion of what's "intrinsically" wrong, (which you LEARNED from your culture and experiences, and if you had ever taken Anthropology 101 you would know is DIFFERENT in every culture) is the ONE that rules the day ?

I repeat. Where did YOU get your ideas about "intrinsically wrong" and why is that more correct than the next person's, and why should you impose that on someone else ?

Oh ffs just go defenestrate yourself please...

Exactly. So you can't.
You have no argument, no source for YOUR opinions on what is "intrinsically wrong", no way to validate that others share your opinions, that your opinions are in any way "the right ones" and no rational way to support what you are saying. There is no such thing as "objective morality". If there were, you could easily anwser these questions.

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23-11-2016, 05:49 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2016 06:02 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 05:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Exactly. So you can't.
You have no argument, no source for YOUR opinions on what is "intrinsically wrong", no way to validate that others share your opinions, that your opinions are in any way "the right ones" and no rational way to support what you are saying. There is no such thing as "objective morality". If there were, you could easily anwser these questions.

Facepalm

Bucky go read the thread again, calmly, and come back when you understand what we are all here to talk about, you are starting to make me fell ashamed on your behalf...

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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23-11-2016, 05:51 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 05:21 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 04:38 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Welcome to the plight of humanity, I don't find any of that extraordinary.

We CAN say it is wrong if enough people agree, that's exactly how we built our laws and society.

That's exactly why slavery is now considered by most to be wrong.

The victims spoke up, eventually enough people listened and said- "you know, they've got a point!".

Why do you have a problem with that?

Why should we be able to say something in wrong just because enough people agree?

If something isn't intrinsically wrong (and it isn't) then is not wrong at all, its just a matter of opinion...

If it is a matter of opinion how can we say someone is wrong? That person just hold a different opinion, someone is wrong for acting out of fashion? for being innovative in morality?

That means the first slave to think (or say) that slavery is a bad thing was wrong? (because at the time many people agree on it)

Why does something being intrinsically wrong have any special status?

Let me approach it from this angle- can we, as humans make comparative value judgements?

Can we say that one action is more beneficial than another action?

We can have rational reasons for why we think that one action is better than another, such as survival of the species or we can say you must choose one action because this book says so.

We base comparative value judgements based on what a book, written by other humans a long time ago with primitive knowledge says or we can base our judgements upon knowledge that is based upon a more enlightened philosophy that puts a higher priority on human rights.

It's really not that difficult to choose and there is nothing remarkable about it.

We choose to assert our values upon one another as humans, that's society at large, but a society where we get to have value as individuals as opposed to a society that assigns human value through superstition, is a better than one based in superstition.

This is called human progress.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-11-2016, 05:58 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2016 06:13 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
Inquisition, If you allow me I changed you post so that it would reflect my questions:

(23-11-2016 05:51 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Let me approach it from this angle- can we, as humans make comparative value judgements?

Can we say that one action is more beneficial than another action?

Can we have rational reasons for why we think that one action is better than another, such as survival of the species?

We base comparative value judgements based on what? our primitive knowledge? or we can base our judgements upon knowledge that is based upon a more enlightened philosophy that puts a higher priority on human rights.

We choose to assert our values upon one another as humans?

This is called human progress?

As you see i`m not assuming, actually I'm not even tempted to look for an alternative source for judgment that transcends naturalism, I'm only advocating that if we are not currently equipped to judge, then we shouldn't judge...

Idk if that's even possible at all times, but whenever we see ourselves making a moral judgment, we should remember that our moral its just an opinion, ingrained by social and anthropological factors, and doesn't reflect what is right, it just reflects what we perceive as right at the moment, and we would to impose relative values of that opinion on the next guy... or the next tyrant, or the next god, or the next book.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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23-11-2016, 06:11 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 05:58 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Inquisition, If you allow me I changed you post so that it would reflect my questions:

(23-11-2016 05:51 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Let me approach it from this angle- can we, as humans make comparative value judgements?

Can we say that one action is more beneficial than another action?

Can we have rational reasons for why we think that one action is better than another, such as survival of the species?

We base comparative value judgements based on what? our primitive knowledge? or we can base our judgements upon knowledge that is based upon a more enlightened philosophy that puts a higher priority on human rights.

We choose to assert our values upon one another as humans?

This is called human progress?

Do you have a better system?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-11-2016, 06:12 PM
RE: Where is the Basis for our Judgments?
(23-11-2016 04:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-11-2016 03:46 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Because it makes your view of morality as a opinion witch* would be a composite of natural and anthropological stuff, and this, not being absolute, magical and not even particularly insightful does not equip us to judge the very same thing of any other given person.

*which

(23-11-2016 04:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There's nothing to focus on, as you have not really said anything coherently about MORALITY, what it's* uses are, or from where it arises. You spelled out nothing. It's not about Craig. He just happens to be wrong, and so are you.

*its

(23-11-2016 04:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  ...
Tell us the objective standard you are championing, and tell us where you found it, and where it came from.

Bucky,
Velvet is not championing objective standards.

Please go back and read the OP. You're embarrassing yourself.

Dodgy

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