Where's the Evidence??
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22-03-2012, 10:49 PM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2012 10:58 PM by Upright BiPed.)
RE: Where's the Evidence??
Hello House of Cantor,

Quote:“Geometry. It's not such an important question but rather reflects the self-importance of the observer.”

What is the geometric determinant between two objects which do not interact? And how does it determine it?

Smile

Hello again morondog,

Semiosis exist anytime one thing represents (means, stand for, is mapped to, symbolizes) something else, and is separate from it.

A bee's dance is representation of an effect within a system. That system is the communication behaviors of the bee. When the other bees see the dance, they respond to it based upon its pattern. They can map the correct response to the pattern because they have a physical protocol in their sensory systems for doing so. The pattern and the response have no material relationship to one another (meaning there is no physico-chemical cause that says a bee bopping up and down in a certain way must result in the other bees flying south), but that mapping exists, solely because the dance and the response operate within a system that has the required protocol to establish it.
Hello Bucky Ball,

Your thoughts regarding disease are understandable.

As understandable as such ultimate frustration can be for all of us, those feelings don't impact the material observations being made.
Sol,

Quote:“Thanks for the clarification, I needed that.”

Your welcome.

Quote:“I see from your responses you are more concerned with the philosophy of "information" transference rather than the Biological aspect.”

I think that, as in all other cases, finding answers will require both good observations and good rationale. In the transfer of information from the genome, there is an sequence of mRNA nucleotides which are assembled by an RNA polymerase from the DNA temple, and that mRNA transcript contains the sequence of codons required to order the anti-codons of charged tRNA within the ribosome. All of this is a chain of material events (bonding, breaking bonds, pairing, etc) leading up to the binding of codon and anticodon. But this chain of events does not translate the order (of the original sequence) into the binding of correct amino acids into polypeptides. That is translation is accomplished solely by the aminoacyl synthetases which charge the tRNAs with the correct amino acids, and operate completely isolated from this first material chain of events. Is there anything in this description that is factually incorrect?

Therefore the mapping of codons to amino acids is not a physical relationship based upon the material make-up of the two objects in question, but is observably determined by a separate object which doesn't interact with them. What principle is involved that suggests we should not recognize that this is precisely the same material dynamic as observed in any other form of recorded information transfer?

Quote:“If I may point out, without animosity... If you are to say that Pierce is anthropomorphic in his approach (which may be valid, although I would rather say anthropocentric.)

If you accuse an act of anthropomorphism, then it is somewhat invidious of you to use an anthropomorphic analogy ie, pheremones and text to humans, as a discount.

Simply as a matter of consistency, it may be best to avoid this type of thing.”

I have no issue with Pierce, but was simply responding to a question. And its hardly invidious to compare the physical process of information transfer in various domains. Far from avoiding the observations, it would be careless not recognize the objects and dynamics involved in the process.

Thanks for the conversation.







Chas,

Quote:“What evidence is convincing? There are no signs or symbols - they're just molecules”


Of course they are all material things. We live in material universe, what else would they be?

From the argument:

There has also been the profoundly illogical objection that because these things follow physical law (and can be understood), they cannot be considered symbols or symbolic representations. Not only does this deny the existence of any symbol in the extreme, it fails for the obvious reason that everything follows physical law. If something can’t be true because it follows the same laws as everything else, then we have entered the Twilight Zone.
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Messages In This Thread
Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 22-03-2012, 09:06 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - lucradis - 22-03-2012, 09:28 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 22-03-2012, 09:36 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Sol - 22-03-2012, 09:36 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - morondog - 22-03-2012, 09:44 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 22-03-2012, 09:48 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - morondog - 22-03-2012, 09:56 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - houseofcantor - 22-03-2012, 12:58 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Chas - 24-03-2012, 12:49 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Stevil - 29-03-2012, 04:13 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Stevil - 29-03-2012, 05:35 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Clint Barnett - 03-04-2012, 04:23 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Adamisk - 06-04-2012, 08:51 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - fstratzero - 22-06-2012, 05:23 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Sol - 22-03-2012, 09:50 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 22-03-2012, 09:50 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 22-03-2012, 10:05 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - morondog - 22-03-2012, 10:39 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Sol - 22-03-2012, 10:19 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - nach_in - 22-03-2012, 10:26 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 22-03-2012, 10:32 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Sol - 22-03-2012, 03:25 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 22-03-2012, 10:41 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - nach_in - 22-03-2012, 11:01 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Denicio - 22-03-2012, 11:25 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Bucky Ball - 22-03-2012, 02:08 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 22-03-2012, 11:47 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - nach_in - 22-03-2012, 12:32 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Chas - 22-03-2012, 07:32 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - morondog - 22-03-2012, 01:10 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Erxomai - 22-03-2012, 01:20 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - morondog - 22-03-2012, 01:25 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 22-03-2012, 05:22 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 22-03-2012, 10:38 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - nach_in - 22-03-2012, 10:48 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 22-03-2012 10:49 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Sol - 23-03-2012, 04:03 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - houseofcantor - 23-03-2012, 05:22 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - nach_in - 22-03-2012, 11:10 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Denicio - 23-03-2012, 07:48 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 23-03-2012, 07:52 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - houseofcantor - 23-03-2012, 08:33 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Sol - 24-03-2012, 09:50 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - FSM_scot - 23-03-2012, 08:36 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 23-03-2012, 09:11 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - FSM_scot - 23-03-2012, 09:34 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 23-03-2012, 09:58 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - FSM_scot - 23-03-2012, 10:06 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Lilith Pride - 23-03-2012, 11:57 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - nach_in - 24-03-2012, 12:41 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Bucky Ball - 24-03-2012, 03:21 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 24-03-2012, 06:20 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Bucky Ball - 24-03-2012, 08:23 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - houseofcantor - 24-03-2012, 07:27 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 24-03-2012, 08:04 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - houseofcantor - 24-03-2012, 08:40 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 24-03-2012, 08:35 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Bucky Ball - 24-03-2012, 09:03 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Denicio - 26-03-2012, 08:14 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - NotSoVacuous - 24-03-2012, 08:46 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 24-03-2012, 08:52 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - houseofcantor - 24-03-2012, 09:46 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 24-03-2012, 09:36 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - NotSoVacuous - 25-03-2012, 06:56 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Chas - 25-03-2012, 10:22 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 24-03-2012, 09:56 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - nach_in - 24-03-2012, 10:25 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 26-03-2012, 09:10 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - houseofcantor - 26-03-2012, 09:58 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Starcrash - 26-03-2012, 09:42 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Denicio - 27-03-2012, 07:39 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 29-03-2012, 11:16 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Denicio - 29-03-2012, 11:33 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - morondog - 29-03-2012, 11:47 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Starcrash - 03-04-2012, 09:12 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Starcrash - 22-05-2012, 05:22 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Lilith Pride - 29-03-2012, 12:22 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 29-03-2012, 04:12 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Denicio - 30-03-2012, 07:51 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Unbeliever - 30-03-2012, 09:47 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - morondog - 29-03-2012, 04:28 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 29-03-2012, 05:20 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - morondog - 30-03-2012, 12:52 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 29-03-2012, 05:43 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Stevil - 29-03-2012, 05:58 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 29-03-2012, 07:37 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Stevil - 29-03-2012, 07:47 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 29-03-2012, 08:27 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Stevil - 29-03-2012, 08:52 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 30-03-2012, 09:18 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Lilith Pride - 30-03-2012, 09:29 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 30-03-2012, 10:51 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Stevil - 30-03-2012, 01:33 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 30-03-2012, 12:49 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 03-04-2012, 08:16 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Lilith Pride - 03-04-2012, 08:24 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 03-04-2012, 09:14 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 06-04-2012, 08:43 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 06-04-2012, 09:57 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 08-04-2012, 01:48 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 14-04-2012, 11:34 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Stevil - 15-04-2012, 04:38 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Stevil - 16-04-2012, 04:52 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Hafnof - 17-04-2012, 05:51 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Jakel - 15-04-2012, 12:53 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 15-04-2012, 04:29 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Chas - 15-04-2012, 07:37 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 16-04-2012, 12:00 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 17-04-2012, 06:51 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Stevil - 17-04-2012, 01:31 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - NoahsFarce - 17-04-2012, 11:12 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Stevil - 18-04-2012, 05:31 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Superluminal - 18-04-2012, 07:52 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 20-04-2012, 12:45 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - FSM_scot - 21-05-2012, 08:56 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - kim - 21-05-2012, 02:40 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 22-05-2012, 02:59 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Lilith Pride - 22-05-2012, 09:30 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 23-05-2012, 03:22 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 25-05-2012, 04:04 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - ddrew - 25-05-2012, 04:24 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 25-05-2012, 04:44 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - NoahsFarce - 30-05-2012, 09:55 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - morondog - 30-05-2012, 01:08 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Starcrash - 30-05-2012, 10:13 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 31-05-2012, 02:45 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - fstratzero - 22-06-2012, 04:05 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Babyeater - 24-06-2012, 10:14 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - iamno4 - 21-08-2012, 08:09 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Chas - 21-08-2012, 08:19 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Vosur - 21-08-2012, 08:28 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - iamno4 - 21-08-2012, 08:41 AM
Where's the Evidence?? - Erxomai - 21-08-2012, 08:45 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - DLJ - 21-08-2012, 09:03 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Logica Humano - 25-08-2012, 06:19 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 13-09-2012, 01:27 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Chas - 13-09-2012, 04:14 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 13-09-2012, 02:27 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 13-09-2012, 02:34 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - morondog - 13-09-2012, 02:48 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 13-09-2012, 04:01 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Upright BiPed - 13-09-2012, 04:05 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Chas - 13-09-2012, 04:17 PM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 14-09-2012, 04:36 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Smooshmonster - 14-09-2012, 05:24 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 14-09-2012, 05:45 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Elesjei - 16-09-2012, 11:57 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - houseofcantor - 14-09-2012, 07:47 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - morondog - 14-09-2012, 07:50 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Chas - 14-09-2012, 08:35 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - morondog - 14-09-2012, 08:41 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Chas - 14-09-2012, 08:46 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - morondog - 14-09-2012, 08:49 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Chas - 14-09-2012, 08:51 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - morondog - 14-09-2012, 08:58 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Chas - 14-09-2012, 09:02 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Filox - 17-09-2012, 05:24 AM
RE: Where's the Evidence?? - Free Thought - 17-09-2012, 05:41 AM
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