Where to find the beauty in a world without a god
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14-03-2017, 05:04 PM
RE: Where to find the beauty in a world without a god
(14-03-2017 04:45 PM)Larai19 Wrote:  From a more humanistic approach...

I think my favorite example of beauty comes from a more narcissistic perspective for me. I think human life is one of the most amazing things to think about philosophically. I think that life is one of the most poetic things to think about in general, honestly.

I love it. Thank you Smile

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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14-03-2017, 05:07 PM
RE: Where to find the beauty in a world without a god
(14-03-2017 01:47 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(13-03-2017 10:11 PM)JesseB Wrote:  As atheists, we're quite possibly the most hated group of people on the planet...

I'd have to strongly disagree with this claim. Firstly, if you think declaring yourself an "atheist" makes you a member of any singular "group" then you don't really understand what atheism refers to. It has nothing at all to do with groupthink, or dogma, or formulae of belief. It's a very personal, solitary thing, and nothing more—or less—than an abstract state of mind. Like love or anger or envy—none have any qualitative and/or quantitative reality.

I think you may inadvertently be tending to conflate atheism with religion—as far as any contiguousness of individuals go. Individual theists do all form part of a larger group bound by common dogma; atheists don't, and never will.

If you think I would ever subscribe to any form of group think, or ideology, then I"m afraid you simply don't know me well enough.

Yes it is a plea to emotion, its an idea I personally find beautiful as expressed in the best way my limited command of the English language allows. Nothing more, nothing less. Nor does it insinuate that all Atheists think alike.

I am anti authoritarian by nature. It would be very difficult for me to join any group that refuses to let me take any position I deem correct on any issue.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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14-03-2017, 05:09 PM
RE: Where to find the beauty in a world without a god
(14-03-2017 02:07 PM)kim Wrote:  
(14-03-2017 01:52 PM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  The nice thing about being an atheist is that, if you don't tell anyone, you're invisible.

Cool

He who hid well, lived well Wink

Hiding for 30 years kept me on the constant brink of suicide for 30 years. Idk if I would agree.

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14-03-2017, 05:21 PM
RE: Where to find the beauty in a world without a god
(14-03-2017 01:47 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(13-03-2017 10:11 PM)JesseB Wrote:  As atheists, we're quite possibly the most hated group of people on the planet...

I'd have to strongly disagree with this claim. Firstly, if you think declaring yourself an "atheist" makes you a member of any singular "group" then you don't really understand what atheism refers to. It has nothing at all to do with groupthink, or dogma, or formulae of belief. It's a very personal, solitary thing, and nothing more—or less—than an abstract state of mind. Like love or anger or envy—none have any qualitative and/or quantitative reality.

I think you may inadvertently be tending to conflate atheism with religion—as far as any contiguousness of individuals go. Individual theists do all form part of a larger group bound by common dogma; atheists don't, and never will.

Actually, I would like to call you out on your insinuation that I somehow don't know what Atheism is. I really don't think I deserved that.

Atheism is a single position on a single issue, the disbelief in a god or gods (personally I extend that to anything supernatural, however not all). In that one position we are in fact united (or more accurately we all have common ground), even if we disagree on EVERY other issue, point or idea we all have that one thing in common. Considering the alternative (theism) Identifies us as a group and we do in fact have a common point of agreement (for all practical purposes making us a group), it is reasonable to define us as a group. That in no way imply's that any of us subscribe to "group think" although given some social issues there are certainly Atheists who do in fact subscribe to group think within their various other issues.

In that theists identify us as a group, and pretty universally hate us (there are statistics that show we are less trusted than rapists for instance, I'll dig up the citation if you really haven't seen it yet), this gives many of us similar struggles. Great for you if you've never had a christian put a gun to your head, I can't say the same, I'm quite envious of you.

Again its a plea to emotion on something I find beautiful and wonderful within a non religious ethics and morality structure. Something I find more meaningful than the religious alternatives. It is of course my personal view and I did not ask, or expect you to agree, however I don't really appreciate the insinuation in this comment. I'm pretty sure I didn't earn it in the OP, and I hope my further explanations can at the very least earn some small measure of respect from you that you don't feel I'm somehow cognitively incompetent or lacking or unable to understand the positions I hold and my justification for them.

I respectfully digress, but thank you for your time reading my posts.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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15-03-2017, 01:35 AM
RE: Where to find the beauty in a world without a god
(14-03-2017 05:21 PM)JesseB Wrote:  Atheism is a single position on a single issue, the disbelief in a god or gods (personally I extend that to anything supernatural, however not all). In that one position we are in fact united (or more accurately we all have common ground), even if we disagree on EVERY other issue, point or idea we all have that one thing in common.

Gnostic atheists say that there is no god. There are atheists saying that atheism is (reasonable as opposed to theism) belief that there is no god. There is no we and no common ground, which considering the issue in question isn't that surprising.

Quote:Considering the alternative (theism) Identifies us as a group and we do in fact have a common point of agreement (for all practical purposes making us a group), it is reasonable to define us as a group.

Theists not only see atheists as a group but conflate them with communists (in Poland at least) therefore theists opinion counts for shit. Also "our" common ground isn't so common.

Atheists are group in the same way as people don't eating mashed potatoes in third day of the week are group.

Quote:In that theists identify us as a group, and pretty universally hate us (there are statistics that show we are less trusted than rapists for instance, I'll dig up the citation if you really haven't seen it yet), this gives many of us similar struggles.

Theists says that atheists are group so they can hate on them easier, ignoring the fact that atheists don't even agree how define atheism.

I refuse to identify myself as part of the group cause indoctrinated sheep insist on it being so. They have their man in dresses to think for them but I'm capable of thinking for myself.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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15-03-2017, 01:53 AM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2017 01:57 AM by JesseB.)
RE: Where to find the beauty in a world without a god
(15-03-2017 01:35 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(14-03-2017 05:21 PM)JesseB Wrote:  Atheism is a single position on a single issue, the disbelief in a god or gods (personally I extend that to anything supernatural, however not all). In that one position we are in fact united (or more accurately we all have common ground), even if we disagree on EVERY other issue, point or idea we all have that one thing in common.

Gnostic atheists say that there is no god. There are atheists saying that atheism is (reasonable as opposed to theism) belief that there is no god. There is no we and no common ground, which considering the issue in question isn't that surprising.

Quote:Considering the alternative (theism) Identifies us as a group and we do in fact have a common point of agreement (for all practical purposes making us a group), it is reasonable to define us as a group.

Theists not only see atheists as a group but conflate them with communists (in Poland at least) therefore theists opinion counts for shit. Also "our" common ground isn't so common.

Atheists are group in the same way as people don't eating mashed potatoes in third day of the week are group.

Quote:In that theists identify us as a group, and pretty universally hate us (there are statistics that show we are less trusted than rapists for instance, I'll dig up the citation if you really haven't seen it yet), this gives many of us similar struggles.

Theists says that atheists are group so they can hate on them easier, ignoring the fact that atheists don't even agree how define atheism.

I refuse to identify myself as part of the group cause indoctrinated sheep insist on it being so. They have their man in dresses to think for them but I'm capable of thinking for myself.

I find your position to be reasonable. You are clearly correct about Gnostic Atheists, i was remiss in failing to point that out. I fail to see how you group me in as someone who is not thinking, nor capable of thinking for myself however. I also fail to see how you think I'm trying to force you to let anyone else do your thinking for you. I am sorry if you don't see the value in my thoughts and ideas, however that doesn't justify the dig, which was my point.

I do not see being a part of any group, regardless of how close or distant the bond as being intrinsically tied to group think. I think there's a flaw in this reasoning. The two are not mutually exclusive. I can understand if you're simply anti group, or anti cooperation, or somehow against your fellow humans (this is not an accusation or assumption on any views you do or don't have). I do not think that taking the position of Atheism requires you or anyone else to adopt humanist values, or secular morality (specifically the more commonly understood definitions of such).

Most of all I fail to see the point/need for the hostility. Is it to chastise? to force conformity to your way of thinking? Or simply a friendly reminder that my speech may have not been inclusive enough for the diversity of people involved? Which was my point in calling this out. I don't think I deserve the hostility, and I'd like a justification for it. If I have caused offence (and I can see the possibility in that) I don't see it as being one where this escalation is warranted. Please explain.

I happen to like the posts you have made, and value your opinion on this matter, along with many more.

Edit^ I might add some people don't like bearing the burden of abuse and suffering alone. Which you are speaking with one such individual, someone who's never had like minded people to converse with in over 30 years.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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15-03-2017, 02:08 AM
RE: Where to find the beauty in a world without a god
(15-03-2017 01:53 AM)JesseB Wrote:  I find your position to be reasonable. You are clearly correct about Gnostic Atheists, i was remiss in failing to point that out. I fail to see how you group me in as someone who is not thinking, nor capable of thinking for myself however. I also fail to see how you think I'm trying to force you to let anyone else do your thinking for you. I am sorry if you don't see the value in my thoughts and ideas, however that doesn't justify the dig, which was my point.

Last part of the post is about theist - you yourself said that they see atheists as a group and all I say is that I refuse to bow to their way of thinking. It is not a slight against you.

After some though you may see it differently so sorry for that. It may look differently but it wasn't thought as such.

Quote:I do not see being a part of any group, regardless of how close or distant the bond as being intrinsically tied to group think. I think there's a flaw in this reasoning. The two are not mutually exclusive. I can understand if you're simply anti group, or anti cooperation, or somehow against your fellow humans (this is not an accusation or assumption on any views you do or don't have). I do not think that taking the position of Atheism requires you or anyone else to adopt humanist values, or secular morality (specifically the more commonly understood definitions of such).

Except for theists using atheists are group for easier hate I didn't even touch issue of group think. I even cut the part about group think from your post as I wasn't interested in speaking about this subject.

I'm not against cooperation, I just think that atheists aren't group as they don't even agree on what atheism is. Atheism for me is nearly empty, if important label. It is important only cause of opposite being common.

Quote:Most of all I fail to see the point/need for the hostility. Is it to chastise? to force conformity to your way of thinking? Or simply a friendly reminder that my speech may have not been inclusive enough for the diversity of people involved? Which was my point in calling this out. I don't think I deserve the hostility, and I'd like a justification for it. If I have caused offence (and I can see the possibility in that) I don't see it as being one where this escalation is warranted. Please explain.

I can see how you arrived to conclusion that part about indoctrinated sheep was about you, but it is nothing more than dig at theists who as you yourself said see atheists as a group. You may see atheists as a group too but I didn't include you in last part of the post.

I simply do not agree with your idea of atheists being a group where they have almost nothing in common.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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15-03-2017, 02:10 AM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2017 02:13 AM by JesseB.)
RE: Where to find the beauty in a world without a god
(15-03-2017 02:08 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 01:53 AM)JesseB Wrote:  I find your position to be reasonable. You are clearly correct about Gnostic Atheists, i was remiss in failing to point that out. I fail to see how you group me in as someone who is not thinking, nor capable of thinking for myself however. I also fail to see how you think I'm trying to force you to let anyone else do your thinking for you. I am sorry if you don't see the value in my thoughts and ideas, however that doesn't justify the dig, which was my point.

Last part of the post is about theist - you yourself said that they see atheists as a group and all I say is that I refuse to bow to their way of thinking. It is not a slight against you.

After some though you may see it differently so sorry for that. It may look differently but it wasn't thought as such.

Quote:I do not see being a part of any group, regardless of how close or distant the bond as being intrinsically tied to group think. I think there's a flaw in this reasoning. The two are not mutually exclusive. I can understand if you're simply anti group, or anti cooperation, or somehow against your fellow humans (this is not an accusation or assumption on any views you do or don't have). I do not think that taking the position of Atheism requires you or anyone else to adopt humanist values, or secular morality (specifically the more commonly understood definitions of such).

Except for theists using atheists are group for easier hate I didn't even touch issue of group think. I even cut the part about group think from your post as I wasn't interested in speaking about this subject.

I'm not against cooperation, I just think that atheists aren't group as they don't even agree on what atheism is. Atheism for me is nearly empty, if important label. It is important only cause of opposite being common.

Quote:Most of all I fail to see the point/need for the hostility. Is it to chastise? to force conformity to your way of thinking? Or simply a friendly reminder that my speech may have not been inclusive enough for the diversity of people involved? Which was my point in calling this out. I don't think I deserve the hostility, and I'd like a justification for it. If I have caused offence (and I can see the possibility in that) I don't see it as being one where this escalation is warranted. Please explain.

I can see how you arrived to conclusion that part about indoctrinated sheep was about you, but it is nothing more than dig at theists who as you yourself said see atheists as a group. You may see atheists as a group too but I didn't include you in last part of the post.

I simply do not agree with your idea of atheists being a group where they have almost nothing in common.

I can absolutely respect that, and I think we are in general agreement here now, thank you for your clarification. I do appreciate it and the time you took to write it.

I'd like to add, that I did point out in the beginning that I added some artistic flare that may have distracted from my intended point. Or perhaps I simply didn't word some things in the best way possible. Regardless, thank you.

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15-03-2017, 02:15 AM
RE: Where to find the beauty in a world without a god
(15-03-2017 02:10 AM)JesseB Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 02:08 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Last part of the post is about theist - you yourself said that they see atheists as a group and all I say is that I refuse to bow to their way of thinking. It is not a slight against you.

After some though you may see it differently so sorry for that. It may look differently but it wasn't thought as such.


Except for theists using atheists are group for easier hate I didn't even touch issue of group think. I even cut the part about group think from your post as I wasn't interested in speaking about this subject.

I'm not against cooperation, I just think that atheists aren't group as they don't even agree on what atheism is. Atheism for me is nearly empty, if important label. It is important only cause of opposite being common.


I can see how you arrived to conclusion that part about indoctrinated sheep was about you, but it is nothing more than dig at theists who as you yourself said see atheists as a group. You may see atheists as a group too but I didn't include you in last part of the post.

I simply do not agree with your idea of atheists being a group where they have almost nothing in common.

I can absolutely respect that, and I think we are in general agreement here now, thank you for your clarification. I do appreciate it and the time you took to write it.

I'm not exactly nice person but leaving post specifically addressed to me about something that could be the case would be both foolish and discourteous.

Edit: I read you OP but I weren't sure as to what write in response. It felt too cuddly to me and I don't much care for people, I just want them to be free to do what they want without hurting others.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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15-03-2017, 02:18 AM
RE: Where to find the beauty in a world without a god
(14-03-2017 06:06 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  [Image: rs_634x844-150518132708-634-womens-healt...051815.jpg]


Her thighs would be ideal headphones. Smile

(14-03-2017 08:10 AM)jennybee Wrote:  ^Those^ Thumbsup

Indeed.

Yours too! Thumbsup

(14-03-2017 09:12 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  But that can't be in Australia, because in another thread you said Australia was flat.

Mate, it's big. Thumbsup

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