Where to start with learning the theory of evolution?
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09-08-2015, 07:06 PM
RE: Where to start with learning the theory of evolution?
Don’t let this hurt your head too much.

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Facepalm

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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09-08-2015, 07:22 PM
RE: Where to start with learning the theory of evolution?
So they basically assume that if a species evolves from another, the species it evolved from ceases to exist? Well, I will agree that would make no sense.

I do find the smarter creationists will actually use the proper term "ape-like ancestor", since we all know humans definately didn't evolve from monkeys.

[Image: spore_creature___placerias_png_by_tote_m...7onlgm.png]" Placerias tastes amazing. " --- Me
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09-08-2015, 08:07 PM
RE: Where to start with learning the theory of evolution?
Okay, completely off topic, but "God's Nipples" would be a great band name. Big Grin

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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09-08-2015, 08:58 PM
RE: Where to start with learning the theory of evolution?
Well, we did evolve from monkeys. We technically are tailless monkeys, as are all great apes, in the broader sense of the term... but it became taboo to refer to the simian elements of our taxonomic classification, due to the objections over our ancestry, and thus a rhetorical (false) division arose between the terms "monkey" and "ape".

I think what the diagram at top is referring to is the Creationist idea of "Created Kinds", after the verses stating each shall reproduce "according to its kind", which they were forced to adopt after the evidence for microevolution became so overwhelming that not even they could deny it. (They also use it to speculate that the divergence allowed smaller numbers of "kinds" to be on Noah's Ark, later diversifying into subspecies of each kind to represent the observed world biodiversity.) If you look closely, you'll see that each "kind" branches out into a bush of species lineages, but unconnected to other bushes.

They never proposed what genetic mechanism prevents progression beyond "kinds", or where such a limit might be found (general consensus seems to be somewhere around Family level) in the clades, but since it claims very rapid speciation "within kinds", they have to be very careful to tie it to the Young Earth dates of 6000 years, else you get an even bigger problem for how widely they can diverge. It's all lunacy, once you know how it actually operates, but unfortunately, it sounds reasonable to people with zero real education in how genetic inheritance principles and population genetics work.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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10-08-2015, 10:57 PM
RE: Where to start with learning the theory of evolution?
(09-08-2015 08:58 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Well, we did evolve from monkeys. We technically are tailless monkeys, as are all great apes, in the broader sense of the term... but it became taboo to refer to the simian elements of our taxonomic classification, due to the objections over our ancestry, and thus a rhetorical (false) division arose between the terms "monkey" and "ape".



Sorry, I guess there was a gap in my knowledge regarding human evolution.

[Image: spore_creature___placerias_png_by_tote_m...7onlgm.png]" Placerias tastes amazing. " --- Me
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10-08-2015, 11:10 PM
RE: Where to start with learning the theory of evolution?
Postie - Never, never apologize for not knowing something. There is zero shame in not knowing. There is only shame in not learning, in not being curious to learn, and/or in refusing to learn when the evidence is in front of you. On the contrary, you are curious, inquisitive, and clearly very bright.

It's a common mistake, especially since even some biologists today have adapted the rhetorical division I mentioned, out of a longstanding tradition of "it's just not worth arguing about". Tongue

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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10-08-2015, 11:18 PM
RE: Where to start with learning the theory of evolution?
Carl Zimmer wrote a companion book to a PBS series about evolution; the book is titled Evolution: The Triumph of an Idea , and it is well-written, covering the basics in a nontechnical manner. The Panda's Thumb, from Stephen Jay Gould, is a collection of essays regarding evolution that hammers home the two points Stevil made above about mutation and selection, randomness and nonrandomness.

Both books are very friendly to the layperson while still exploring more complicated concepts, and Gould's in particular has a a charming writing style.
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11-08-2015, 08:59 AM
RE: Where to start with learning the theory of evolution?
(10-08-2015 11:10 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Postie - Never, never apologize for not knowing something. There is zero shame in not knowing. There is only shame in not learning, in not being curious to learn, and/or in refusing to learn when the evidence is in front of you. On the contrary, you are curious, inquisitive, and clearly very bright.

It's a common mistake, especially since even some biologists today have adapted the rhetorical division I mentioned, out of a longstanding tradition of "it's just not worth arguing about". Tongue

I would disagree with characterizing it a "purely rhetorical".

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11-08-2015, 03:05 PM
RE: Where to start with learning the theory of evolution?
Well not to quibble, but as I understand it, it is rhetorical and artificial, but has become something of a household term (even among scientists), and thus stuck, even though an even more accurate nomenclature was later introduced. "Simian" used to be a word that was 100% interchangeable with "monkey", and included all of the monkeys and apes, including us... later, the concept of "old world monkeys" and "new world monkeys" was introduced as standard classification terminology, in part because of a desire to differentiate the categories and emphasize that apes, even including humans were not "monkeys", largely because this was seen as a common hangup for many people. (See the rhetoric in the Scopes Trial.) Wikipedia's articles on the terms can explain why the rhetorical arguments are a bit more complex than I wish to get into, here, if you're curious enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplorhini

Haplorhini (the haplorhines or the "dry-nosed" primates, the Greek name means "simple-nosed") is a clade containing the tarsiers and the simians (or anthropoids). The simians include catarrhines (Old World monkeys and apes, including humans) and the platyrrhines (New World monkeys).

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-08-2015, 04:09 AM
learning the theory of evolution? The Blog of Sincerity - Atheism, Philosophy
Origin of Species by Darwin is one major suggestion but even that is quite out-dated. Just do a lot of Googling, video watching, websites and reading plenty of books on the subject.

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