Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
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15-02-2015, 09:17 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(15-02-2015 12:38 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Don't they just assert that god and hence the supernatural realm are eternal, have always been there.

Yes, but if the supernatural realm has always existed, why can't the natural realm have always existed. If you've got to start with something that always existed, makes sense to start with what we know exists rather than another realm outside it that we have no choice but to imagine.

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15-02-2015, 10:30 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
Until it is fully determined what a supernatural realm IS then it can't well be said that ANY discussion of it can go on. I first need to know WHAT it is and WHY it is said to exist and WHAT REASON I have to think it exists.
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15-02-2015, 04:19 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
Karen Armstrong talked about this in A History of God. The concept of god's nature changed frequently in the bible. One writer would make a tale of god wrestling with Jacob, walking in the cool evening in the garden with Adam. A very physical god, but others would only portray god as a spirit separated from the natural realm. It really seems to be an ad-hoc description of god that changes depending on the author.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-02-2015, 10:27 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
Gods have a lot of contradicting characteristics that makes proving (or disproving) their existence impossible. If all theist could come up with a consistent and precise definition for a god, then maybe all their clame could gain some importence. The same goes for the supernatural realm.
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25-02-2015, 07:30 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(14-02-2015 07:50 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I was just wondering. Theists tell me that their god created everything in existence from a supernatural realm outside of existence. Leaving aside the self contradictory notion of something existing outside of existence, who created the supernatural realm?

It's a very thin veneer applied to the Cosmological Argument to cover up the special pleading.

Obviously, as soon as someone who makes this argument asserts that God was the first cause, the next question out of anyone's mouth who is honest is "what caused God?". If they say "nothing", then they have just violated the same universal rule the used to assert God, so they would be resorting to special pleading to justify the hypocrisy. If they they list some cause, then they just kicked the can back a step, and you can ask what caused that cause.

So, to break out of this conundrum, they assert that God exists outside of time, which means he has no cause, as we understand it. Of course, playing this fast and loose with things raises several other questions:
  • If you believe something can exist without being caused, how do you know the universe needs to be caused?
  • If you believe that the universe was created by something "outside of time", how do you know that thing is intelligent?
  • If God existed outside of time before creating everything, what was he doing for infinity years by himself? Sure, you can say he's "outside of time" and that there wasn't infinite time before the creation, but at that point, everything just becomes incoherent. How could he have acted to create everything if there is no time or causality? Its self-defeating.
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25-02-2015, 02:15 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(14-02-2015 07:50 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Leaving aside the self contradictory notion of something existing outside of existence, who created the supernatural realm?

Ok, I admit it; it was me.

Man, it feels good to get that off my chest. You have no idea what a burden it is to carry a secret like that around.

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01-03-2015, 12:58 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2015 11:08 AM by rezider.)
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(25-02-2015 07:30 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 07:50 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I was just wondering. Theists tell me that their god created everything in existence from a supernatural realm outside of existence. Leaving aside the self contradictory notion of something existing outside of existence, who created the supernatural realm?

It's a very thin veneer applied to the Cosmological Argument to cover up the special pleading.

Obviously, as soon as someone who makes this argument asserts that God was the first cause, the next question out of anyone's mouth who is honest is "what caused God?". If they say "nothing", then they have just violated the same universal rule the used to assert God, so they would be resorting to special pleading to justify the hypocrisy. If they they list some cause, then they just kicked the can back a step, and you can ask what caused that cause.

So, to break out of this conundrum, they assert that God exists outside of time, which means he has no cause, as we understand it. Of course, playing this fast and loose with things raises several other questions:
  • If you believe something can exist without being caused, how do you know the universe needs to be caused?
  • If you believe that the universe was created by something "outside of time", how do you know that thing is intelligent?
  • If God existed outside of time before creating everything, what was he doing for infinity years by himself? Sure, you can say he's "outside of time" and that there wasn't infinite time before the creation, but at that point, everything just becomes incoherent. How could he have acted to create everything if there is no time or causality? Its self-defeating.

I couldn't agree more!

The Bible gives its followers the ability to read it in any way they see fit. You can often hear different people claim that the Bible is metaphorical or literal. Most people even go to the extreme and say that it's both metaphorical and literal (how do you know which parts are the allegorical parts?).

From a christian standpoint the Bible is logical (go figure) but science is not. This is so because for them it contradicts what is written in the 'holy book'. This is a psychological moment where people only accept that which proves their own theory. It is a way of self containment. They are afraid to step out of their small circle of knowledge and expand it. That is a scary moment for many; losing control over something so precious to humans.

The fear of being wrong is the downfall of any rational mind.

Letting the possibility that they've been living a lie will ultimately lead to questioning reality and that, my friend, is why it is so hard to let go of religion.

Religion is so powerful not because of its logical explanation... it is powerful because of statements in the lines of: 'The stronger you believe, the stronger the Devil's attacks against you.' This basically allows you to brainwash yourself without the influence of your parents, grandparents, pastors or whoever is around you preaching this fallacy. You keep thinking to yourself that the moment you question something THE DEVIL HAS ENTERED YOUR MIND!

Now, on the problem with the 'supernatural realm' RobbyPants pretty much covered the main contradictions, so for now I just have to say: It must be really lonely being God.

"I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way." - Carl Sagan
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14-03-2015, 04:28 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(14-02-2015 07:50 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I was just wondering. Theists tell me that their god created everything in existence from a supernatural realm outside of existence. Leaving aside the self contradictory notion of something existing outside of existence, who created the supernatural realm?

It just may be possible that the supernatural "realm" is just as necessary in its existence as the God that sustains it.
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14-03-2015, 04:32 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(14-03-2015 04:28 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 07:50 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I was just wondering. Theists tell me that their god created everything in existence from a supernatural realm outside of existence. Leaving aside the self contradictory notion of something existing outside of existence, who created the supernatural realm?

It just may be possible that the supernatural "realm" is just as necessary in its existence as the God that sustains it.

Well, I think that's something upon which we can all agree.

Indeed, just as necessary and just as likely.

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15-03-2015, 01:07 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(14-03-2015 04:32 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(14-03-2015 04:28 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  It just may be possible that the supernatural "realm" is just as necessary in its existence as the God that sustains it.

Well, I think that's something upon which we can all agree.

Indeed, just as necessary and just as likely.

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