Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
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26-11-2015, 09:48 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
Hey Esquilax, long time no spanking Laugh out load

(26-11-2015 11:34 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  So you don't know how basic, elementary claims about your god's existence works, but you do know that they work, anyway? How can that be?

Those "basic, elementary claims" about God are some of the toughest questions in life, sir. God exists based on the necessity of his own nature...now how that works, I don't know...but what that means is there is just a point at which you cannot go any further...that is the point.

(26-11-2015 11:34 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  Your consciousness is an electrochemical pattern stored within the brain, it most definitely does have a form.

Ok, so when you are sad, are the electro-chemicals sad?? When you are angry, are the electro-chemicals angry? The answer is "no" to both questions. The electrons/neutrons in your brain doesn't have feelings and emotions, yet, "you" do.

In other words, there is an immaterial "you" that transcends your physical body. Now sure, there is a correlation between your brain and your consciousness, but correlation does not entail origins, because they are distinct...but they work together based on the divine engineering via power and intelligence of the cosmic creator of both.

(26-11-2015 11:34 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  A form that can be altered and, in fact, changed quite significantly just by altering that pattern and container, something that you wouldn't be able to do if the consciousness was just some unattached thing.

Huh

(26-11-2015 11:34 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  Ha ha, okay, now I'm interested: how do you intend to demonstrate that consciousness can exist without a brain? I notice you didn't actually do that, as if just asserting that it's demonstrable counts for anything.

Actually, the argument from consciousness is in my top 3 of the "two dozen or so theistic arguments" Big Grin and I love discussing it. So lets talk about it...

First off, it seems that the mind/body-naturalism worldview has an immediate chicken/egg problem. So which came first? The mind, or the brain?

If the brain came before the mind, then I'd like you to explain to me how thoughts can suddenly and/or gradually become embedded into the brain, since thoughts aren't material substance.

The mere thought of a dog isn't made up of matter and doesn't occupy physical space. So how can the thought itself ever be embedded into the brain to the point at which the brain is thinking about a dog? If the brain came before the mind, then you'd have to naturally explain how the brain (material) could conjoin together with consciousness (immaterial) to where'as you have a thinking brain .

If the mind came before the brain, then the naturalist have even bigger problems (for reasons you already know) Big Grin.
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26-11-2015, 10:09 PM (This post was last modified: 27-11-2015 11:40 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(26-11-2015 09:48 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Long time no spanking ...

You are totally delusional. You have never "spanked" anyone here, and couldn't if you tried. You are a very very very poor apologist. In fact you're downright laughable as one.

(26-11-2015 09:48 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Those "basic, elementary claims" about God are some of the toughest questions in life, sir. God exists based on the necessity of his own nature...now how that works, I don't know...but what that means is there is just a point at which you cannot go any further...that is the point.

You can't possibly be serious. The fact is that crap is what Bible Camp taught you. You can't even say what it means. You think it sounds good, so you use it. You have no clue what it actually means.
It's based on at least two obviously false assumptions.
1. That what appears to humans to be "intuitive" is the way reality works, (proven false a number of times), -> Relativity, Uncertainty and the math of Dirac.
I know you know absolutely NOTHING about science, but in fact those things destroy your "necessary" crap. Tell Bible Camp you want your money back.
2. That your weak deity is subject to reality, and not it's master. You STILL have not answered what created the Reality your idiot god exists ("necessarily") in, and how did the reality come about that MAKES his existence "necessary" ? You have no answer for that.

(26-11-2015 09:48 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Ok, so when you are sad, are the electro-chemicals sad?? When you are angry, are the electro-chemicals angry? The answer is "no" to both questions. The electrons/neutrons in your brain doesn't have feelings and emotions, yet, "you" do.

Hahahahahahahahaha. Thanks for proving you never even took ONE course in Biology or anything related to Psychology or the brain or science, and have NO CLUE what you're babbling about. Yet you claim to have an argument "from consciousness". Clearly you don't know ANYTHING about brains. Your question is one of THE stupidest things ever posted here. "Are your chemicals sad ?" LMAO. You ignorant fuckwad. You're even MORE ignorant than anyone ever guessed.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-m...depression

(26-11-2015 09:48 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  In other words, there is an immaterial "you" that transcends your physical body. Now sure, there is a correlation between your brain and your consciousness, but correlation does not entail origins, because they are distinct...but they work together based on the divine engineering via power and intelligence of the cosmic creator of both.

Prove it. Ignorant assertions are not evidence.
No there isn't. There is no evidence for that garbage, and you have none, and can produce none.

You have NOT ONE CLUE about brains, how thought works, or even basic Neuro-science. No wonder you are a theist, what that astounding level of medieval childish ignorance.
Injured brains can't think. It PROVES a physical brain is the source of consciousness. YOU have no evidence to contradict that.

I'll give you a tiny hint there dumbass, --->>> There is an entire HUGE pharmaceutical industry in the world that makes BILLIONS of dollars per year, based on the fact that CHEMICALS alter brain chemistry, (making people happy AND sad). Maybe you could go to the corner drug store and buy a clue.

You claim in Kalam that all things that come to exist have a cause. Now you are excepting BOTH god and Reality from that. How many OTHER things will you special plead out of the list of things that need explanations ?

Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-11-2015, 07:42 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(26-11-2015 11:06 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 09:17 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  How can anything omniscient or omnipotent exist, it's nonsense.

I don't know how God could have existed for eternity without time...I don't know what it means for an entity to have NOT been created. I don't have all of the answers...but I am convinced based on the answers that I do have, and I've been convinced for a very long time...that God exists.

(23-11-2015 09:17 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  How can a conscious acting being exist without form?

God is an unembodied mind that can manifest himself into a physical form (i.e the burning bush, Jesus). Your consciousness doesn't have a form, does it? Well, then.

(23-11-2015 09:17 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Or without a brain specifically?

This is a question only if you assume that a brain is required for consciousness...and that is not only presumptuous but demonstrably false.

(23-11-2015 09:17 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  How do you know events in not demonstrated manners at anyway?

By thinking critically.

(23-11-2015 09:17 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  If you think you're honest in what you're saying here, you have a serious special pleading issue where you just grant acceptance to attributes of God even though they're more/as impossible as things you deem HAVE to be impossible, despite no real evidence.

I have evidence...now whether the evidence is good enough for you, who cares. All I know is that I am convinced.

So you think God can manifest itself into the physical form when it wants, but still have other random elements on this magical out of & into physical form being. You're saying you're certain it can exist outside the physical form but couldn't create the physical form by existing before/during that physical forms creation, it had to come after which makes the Deity not the creator of all things anyway. Why you limit your God this way is still unexplained.

You make my electro-chemicals sad... very sad, but I guess some of them are hopeful there are less who are so sure of themselves as you out there moreso these days.

Why would you want to remain convinced of anything for some lengthy certainty? Seeking the world & human interaction in some pattern without certainty can lead to a great deal of competing and informing wonders crossing your view routinely. Not sure why you're here posting in the manner you are if you're solely convinced. You should learn how to actually approach apologetics in some manner that would actually interact with people if that's your goal. Because you're just bad at it, and that's not some all Christians are bad at it. There have been other recent posters who are far better engagers and questioners who don't simply revert to showing how woefully uneducated they are scientifically and philosophically in simple manners like you.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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27-11-2015, 07:49 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(26-11-2015 10:55 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Yet he is a Christian theist, which means that apparently he finds the belief in God reasonable enough to put all of his eggs inside the basket. Now, how he came to his beliefs is irrelevant...the fact of the matter is, he believes Laugh out load

No, how someone comes to believe is precisely the point. Facepalm

Anyone who could actually come to believe Christian theology could be made to believe almost anything.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-11-2015, 08:38 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(27-11-2015 07:42 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You make my electro-chemicals sad...

I see a new meme forming here...

"My electro-chemicals has a sad"

Sadcryface

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27-11-2015, 08:55 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(14-02-2015 07:50 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I was just wondering. Theists tell me that their god created everything in existence from a supernatural realm outside of existence. Leaving aside the self contradictory notion of something existing outside of existence, who created the supernatural realm?

I know, that you know, that I know, that you know......... So get to the point Ralfy boy.

Norton, how would you like a dose of reality?

The super natural exists because of human imagination. We know that, but theists still don't have a clue.

Extra credit, what comedian was I spoofing?

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27-11-2015, 10:08 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(27-11-2015 07:42 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  So you think God can manifest itself into the physical form when it wants, but still have other random elements on this magical out of & into physical form being.

I think God can do anything that is logically possible.

(27-11-2015 07:42 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You're saying you're certain it can exist outside the physical form but couldn't create the physical form by existing before/during that physical forms creation, it had to come after which makes the Deity not the creator of all things anyway. Why you limit your God this way is still unexplained.

Makes no sense.

(27-11-2015 07:42 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You make my electro-chemicals sad... very sad

With no regrets.

(27-11-2015 07:42 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Why would you want to remain convinced of anything for some lengthy certainty? Seeking the world & human interaction in some pattern without certainty can lead to a great deal of competing and informing wonders crossing your view routinely. Not sure why you're here posting in the manner you are if you're solely convinced. You should learn how to actually approach apologetics in some manner that would actually interact with people if that's your goal. Because you're just bad at it, and that's not some all Christians are bad at it. There have been other recent posters who are far better engagers and questioners who don't simply revert to showing how woefully uneducated they are scientifically and philosophically in simple manners like you.

How about actually responding to what I said instead of typing meaningless paragraphs of your unwarranted opinion of the subject matter?
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27-11-2015, 10:08 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(27-11-2015 07:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, how someone comes to believe is precisely the point. Facepalm

Anyone who could actually come to believe Christian theology could be made to believe almost anything.

I feel the say way about naturalism Big Grin
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27-11-2015, 10:21 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(26-11-2015 09:48 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Hey Esquilax, long time no spanking Laugh out load

Yes. I see you're still mistaking meaningless grandstanding for having a cogent point. How sad.

Quote:Those "basic, elementary claims" about God are some of the toughest questions in life, sir. God exists based on the necessity of his own nature...now how that works, I don't know...but what that means is there is just a point at which you cannot go any further...that is the point.

When you can't demonstrate it, just define it into existence by fiat, eh? The "necessity of his own nature"? Give me a break, that's just "god exists because god has to exist!" Why should I take that assertion at all seriously, when you've already admitted that the basics of that assertion elude you?

Quote:Ok, so when you are sad, are the electro-chemicals sad?? When you are angry, are the electro-chemicals angry? The answer is "no" to both questions. The electrons/neutrons in your brain doesn't have feelings and emotions, yet, "you" do.

When it's windy outside, are all the air molecules breezy? No, and yet there's still wind. That's because wind is a process created by air molecules, not a distinct entity in its own right.

Likewise, "sad," is created by the electrochemical patterns in the brain, experienced by the subjective process that is "you." Lots of strictly physical phenomena behave like this, it's not surprising or anything: a stove produces heat, but not one molecule of it is a heat molecule, a fridge makes things cool but the molecules inside it don't get chilly. Are you then asserting that hot and cold don't exist, or require magic to exist?

Quote:In other words, there is an immaterial "you" that transcends your physical body.

There is me, the ongoing conscious process instilled and produced by the brain, yes. Still not magic.

Quote:Now sure, there is a correlation between your brain and your consciousness, but correlation does not entail origins, because they are distinct...but they work together based on the divine engineering via power and intelligence of the cosmic creator of both.

Nope, sorry, I'm going to need something a little more substantial than just "it's not impossible that what I'm saying is true," from you. At least I have a correlation, all you have is an empty assertion that it doesn't mean there's not still a spirit, and a complete lack of understanding of neurology.

Quote:
(26-11-2015 11:34 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  A form that can be altered and, in fact, changed quite significantly just by altering that pattern and container, something that you wouldn't be able to do if the consciousness was just some unattached thing.

Huh

So, if you alter the neurochemistry of my brain, you can alter my consciousness. Certain drugs will do that, for a wide range of varying effects, as will alterations to the actual physical brain, like head injuries and so on. There's actually a pretty interesting case where a guy had the part of his brain that connects the two hemispheres severed, and as a result if you asked him whether he believed in god, one hemisphere would answer yes, and the other would answer no. Like, he had a theist half of his brain, and an atheist half of his brain: now, what? Did his "immaterial you," get split in half? Did his soul just happen to bifurcate at precisely the moment his brain got altered? Does it just so conveniently happen that way every time someone gets a brain injury?

This all goes to my point: since the brain is the thing that produces consciousness, it absolutely makes sense that alterations to the brain affect it. It doesn't make sense at all that damaging the brain would cause such alterations if consciousness was some separate, supernatural thing that's not reliant on brain chemistry at all... and if it is reliant on brain chemistry in some respect, then where exactly do you get off asking these "derp, if brain chemistry plays a part in emotions, then why aren't the chemicals sad???" questions?

Quote:First off, it seems that the mind/body-naturalism worldview has an immediate chicken/egg problem. So which came first? The mind, or the brain?

The brain did. What, did you think that was hard?

Quote:If the brain came before the mind, then I'd like you to explain to me how thoughts can suddenly and/or gradually become embedded into the brain, since thoughts aren't material substance.

There's no "suddenly" about it. You can see the gradient of consciousness within different animal species based upon the complexity of their brains, it's clear that, as the brain developed in complexity over time, so too did consciousness. And you can also see why that might be, too: a complex brain provides an immediate survival advantage in that the extra processing power allows for better reactions to a wider range of situations.

It's not like this is some impossible conundrum you've posed here, it's just emergent properties, nothing special.

Quote:The mere thought of a dog isn't made up of matter and doesn't occupy physical space.

Yes, it is. There is a distinct pattern within the brain, composed of the same neurochemicals as everything else in there, that is elicited whenever you are prompted to think of a dog. You can see it on an imaging scan.

Quote: So how can the thought itself ever be embedded into the brain to the point at which the brain is thinking about a dog? If the brain came before the mind, then you'd have to naturally explain how the brain (material) could conjoin together with consciousness (immaterial) to where'as you have a thinking brain .

The other possibility is that you have no understanding of neuroscience and some incredible misconceptions about what we've been able to demonstrate regarding the brain and the process of thinking. Given your past history of hilariously misrepresenting science and then having no interest at all in actual research, that's clearly the most parsimonious explanation.

Quote:If the mind came before the brain, then the naturalist have even bigger problems (for reasons you already know) Big Grin.

I think the best that can be said is that the two arose together, in some sense. Strictly speaking though, the brain came first, depending on what you'd accept to be a brain.

Incidentally, if the mind is some supernatural thing that doesn't rely on the brain for anything, then what's the actual biological purpose of the brain, in your view? Drinking Beverage
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27-11-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
My vote is Norgg. It used to float around creating universes with its star creating flatulence, but it decided to reside now inside hollow Uranus where it creates human souls by mixing bigfoot dander, fairy dust, and unicorn farts into the Great Sky Cauldron resulting in human souls. These are bottled up inside special artisan elven glass bottles and fired into the Earth's atmosphere where the bottle melts upon entry, releasing the soul to be inhaled by the next new human baby upon its first breath!!!!

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