Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
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17-12-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(17-12-2015 01:37 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(17-12-2015 11:14 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  So, do you think that life has always existed? I'm pretty sure you don't.

Actually, I do. I believe that God has always existed.

(17-12-2015 11:14 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You just think that such event had to have been caused by an invisible man in the sky.

And you think that such an event had to have been caused by an invisible naturalistic mechanism that did something in the distant past that it has never been observed to do in the present.

(17-12-2015 11:14 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You don't deny the event itself, because you can't. We are withholding our belief in the invisible man in the sky until such time as there is any evidence of his existence.

And I am withholding my belief in the invisible naturalistic mechanism that can turn nonliving matter into living and breathing human beings of intellect..and I am withholding my belief until such a time as there is any evidence of its existence.

Not sure why you would qualify something of this sort as invisible.. as if it has a form but it's form is not viewable. Why you choose that label leads to questioning your interpretation of the ideas.

I am also withholding a believe in such a mechanism.. but I don't in contrast believe in an alternative claim of such views of life(in an undefined form) always existing.

What is your definition of life then? Does God replicate? Does God need nourishment? Under what concepts of life your entity labeled God life?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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17-12-2015, 02:26 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(17-12-2015 01:37 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(17-12-2015 11:14 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  So, do you think that life has always existed? I'm pretty sure you don't.

Actually, I do. I believe that God has always existed.

No, sorry, we are talking about physical biological life. God doesn't qualify. And we all agree that there was a time when there was no physical biological life in the universe -- that it "began to exist", as you like to say. So you can't say that inanimate matter "coming to life" is mythical. It happened, and you admit that it happened just like we do.

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(17-12-2015 11:14 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You just think that such event had to have been caused by an invisible man in the sky.

And you think that such an event had to have been caused by an invisible naturalistic mechanism that did something in the distant past that it has never been observed to do in the present.

No, I make no claims about the causes of the origins of life. You are the one who claims to know that it was caused by an invisible man in the sky for whom there is no evidence. I don't know exactly what happened, or how, or why, and I don't claim to. Unlike you, I don't have some pathological need to have all the answers. It's OK -- at least for me -- to say "I don't know". As for what has "never been observed" -- God does qualify for that.
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17-12-2015, 05:07 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(17-12-2015 10:17 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(16-12-2015 05:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  The findings of neuroscience. You ought to try reading, you might learn something.

You will only get correlation if you look into neuroscience, you won't get origins, which is what I am bitching about.

When talking about origins, science can't help ya, buddy.

(16-12-2015 05:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  If that were true (it's not)

Notice you didn't explain why it isn't true Laugh out load

Because it was gobbledygook.

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(16-12-2015 05:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  , then why isn't sand wet when it is touching an object?

Because sand doesn't have wet making properties, water does.

Where did water get that property? It does not exist in the constituent parts.

Pro tip: The wetness is an emergent property.

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(16-12-2015 05:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, you have no concept of where the wetness came from.

Wetness is not a concrete thing, it is a state of affair..it is the state that an object is in once H20 touches it.

If you can't understand that, then you can't be helped, sir.

It is the water that is wet, all on its own.

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(16-12-2015 05:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  The brain evolved as every organ did.

This is the naturalistic version of "goddidit" Laugh out load

No, we have evidence that evolution is true. There is no evidence for any gods.

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(16-12-2015 05:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  Consciousness emerges from the complexity of the brain.

Can you scientifically demonstrate this claim, sir? No, you can't. You are assuming. You are relying on your religion (science). You accept by faith. You are relying on the unseen.

No, I am relying on the evidence produced by neuroscience.

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(16-12-2015 05:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is evidence that science continually advances, that we learn more and more about the way things are.

Science is not the end all/be all for knowledge.

Actually, it is the only reliable source of knowledge.

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(16-12-2015 05:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  There isn't even any conclusive evidence that Jesus even existed

There isn't conclusive evidence for YOU. There is conclusive evidence for the 1.2 billion Christians in the world Laugh out load

You do not know what constitutes evidence; you continually demonstrate that misunderstanding.

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(16-12-2015 05:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  let alone the rest of your incoherent myth.

About as mythical as inanimate matter coming to life.

Define life. Show the dividing line between non-life and life. Are viruses alive? Prions?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-12-2015, 06:45 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
In response to the OP, Robert Wright's 'The Evolution of God' gives good insight to how and why the concept of gods or the spiritual realm has always been part of the human condition. It's pretty plausible until the end of the book where it alludes to an idea that God is actually real and has yet to evolve into it's final form or... we simply have yet to conceive what God is. Although I was a bit thrown in the last chapter of the book, I still think it's a good read.

If you're in to audiobooks of this subject there's Mitch Horowitz's 'Occult America' (White House Seances, Ouija Circles, Masons, and the Secret Mystic History of Our Nation) posted on ---->youtube<---- which speaks to the origins of weird mystical beliefs of our modern times. It's well worth a listen.
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18-12-2015, 04:28 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(17-12-2015 02:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  No, sorry, we are talking about physical biological life.

Then say that, then.

(17-12-2015 02:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  God doesn't qualify.

Of course God doesn't qualify, if and only if you assume that life arose naturally...but that is the question, isn't it?

(17-12-2015 02:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  And we all agree that there was a time when there was no physical biological life in the universe -- that it "began to exist", as you like to say. So you can't say that inanimate matter "coming to life" is mythical. It happened, and you admit that it happened just like we do.

Ladies and gentleman, look at the above statement. Do you see what the problem is?? Read it again. Can you see it?? Notice that based on this statement, God is not even an option for Grasshopper (and most of you). The concept of intelligent design is already ruled out from jump street. That is the problem, close-mindedness.

Anyway, inanimate matter coming to life IS mythical. If you can't prove that life can arise from nonliving material, then you are speculating. You are assuming. You are relying on faith...and the faith based system that life arose from nonliving material doesn't have any more virtue than a man rising from the dead.

(17-12-2015 02:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  No, I make no claims about the causes of the origins of life.

Well if God didn't do it, then science has some explaining to do. If intelligent design is taken out of the equation, then science is the answer to everything. Therefore should be a natural law that will get us life from nonlife...a universe from nothing...consciousness from unconsciousness...and not to mention language and objective morality.

And guess what, you can't explain the origins of any of those things with science. Therefore, it makes sense to go where there are answer to these questions...and that is with theism and yes, God.

Now I know how much you can't stand the "G" word...how much you despise the "G" word...but that is just too damn bad.

(17-12-2015 02:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You are the one who claims to know that it was caused by an invisible man in the sky for whom there is no evidence.

I have evidence that is convincing to me.

(17-12-2015 02:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I don't know exactly what happened, or how, or why, and I don't claim to. Unlike you, I don't have some pathological need to have all the answers. It's OK -- at least for me -- to say "I don't know". As for what has "never been observed" -- God does qualify for that.

It is called getting off of your intellectual ass and do some critical thinking. Jesus said either you are with him, or against him, and "I don't know" means you are not with him, therefore, you are against him...especially when the Bible says that there is more than enough evidence for any human being with common sense to be convinced.

I don't know just ain't good enough.
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18-12-2015, 04:40 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(18-12-2015 04:28 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(17-12-2015 02:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  No, sorry, we are talking about physical biological life.

Then say that, then.

(17-12-2015 02:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  God doesn't qualify.

Of course God doesn't qualify, if and only if you assume that life arose naturally...but that is the question, isn't it?

(17-12-2015 02:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  And we all agree that there was a time when there was no physical biological life in the universe -- that it "began to exist", as you like to say. So you can't say that inanimate matter "coming to life" is mythical. It happened, and you admit that it happened just like we do.

Ladies and gentleman, look at the above statement. Do you see what the problem is?? Read it again. Can you see it?? Notice that based on this statement, God is not even an option for Grasshopper (and most of you). The concept of intelligent design is already ruled out from jump street. That is the problem, close-mindedness.

Anyway, inanimate matter coming to life IS mythical. If you can't prove that life can arise from nonliving material, then you are speculating. You are assuming. You are relying on faith...and the faith based system that life arose from nonliving material doesn't have any more virtue than a man rising from the dead.

(17-12-2015 02:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  No, I make no claims about the causes of the origins of life.

Well if God didn't do it, then science has some explaining to do. If intelligent design is taken out of the equation, then science is the answer to everything. Therefore should be a natural law that will get us life from nonlife...a universe from nothing...consciousness from unconsciousness...and not to mention language and objective morality.

And guess what, you can't explain the origins of any of those things with science. Therefore, it makes sense to go where there are answer to these questions...and that is with theism and yes, God.

Now I know how much you can't stand the "G" word...how much you despise the "G" word...but that is just too damn bad.

(17-12-2015 02:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You are the one who claims to know that it was caused by an invisible man in the sky for whom there is no evidence.

I have evidence that is convincing to me.

(17-12-2015 02:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I don't know exactly what happened, or how, or why, and I don't claim to. Unlike you, I don't have some pathological need to have all the answers. It's OK -- at least for me -- to say "I don't know". As for what has "never been observed" -- God does qualify for that.

It is called getting off of your intellectual ass and do some critical thinking. Jesus said either you are with him, or against him, and "I don't know" means you are not with him, therefore, you are against him...especially when the Bible says that there is more than enough evidence for any human being with common sense to be convinced.

I don't know just ain't good enough.

If you're working on critical thinking, you should measure when you're jumping to assumptions on your positions of what someone said.

You shouldn't even join into a realm of judging based on "what jesus said" yet, because you should still be questioning the concepts of what is the validity of such cases layers thick. Is it true Jesus said that? If he even did, does it matter? If he did, was he accurate and right about that? If he did, does that explain trusting him? Does the source have an accurate testable foundation to accept it as a data of truth? Critical thinking is beyond anything reasonable of, accepting a quote via a prophet.

You again show horrible dishonesty or reading comprehensions again. If you think what Grasshopper said is some, Oh this position is already disregarding GOD. He's saying, even by your and christian typical definitions of God. God isn't physical biological life. Because God isn't. So your claim of Life arising out of non-life still applies to your belief. And the Bible directly SAYS non-life from clay-became life.(through the power of God) yes, but it's still as you stated. Non-life becoming life.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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18-12-2015, 04:42 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
I'm not going to bother quoting all of CotW's bullshit, but:

1. An honest "I don't know" is not only good enough, it beats the shit out of making stuff up because you just have to have all the answers.

2. When I, or CotW, or anyone else, talks about the origin of life, it goes without saying that we are talking about the origin of physical biological life. Only an idiot or a dishonest troll would need that explicitly spelled out. When CotW says "inanimate matter coming to life" -- he obviously is not including God in his definition of "life". No apologist would claim that God came from inanimate matter. But life (physical biological life) manifestly did come from inanimate matter. This is not in question.

3. I'm not leaving God out because he's "not an option" or because I can't stand the sight of the "G" word. In fact, I'm not leaving God out at all. I will admit God as one possible hypothesis for the origin of life. But I am not assuming that he is the only option, especially when there is not one shred of evidence for his existence. For me, it's an open question. I DON'T KNOW. This has nothing to do with intellectual laziness and everything to do with intellectual honesty. I'm not the one with a closed mind here.
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18-12-2015, 05:00 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(17-12-2015 05:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  Because it was gobbledygook.

Ohhh, maybe I should have said it in ways that you'd understand...meowwwww.

(17-12-2015 05:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  Where did water get that property? It does not exist in the constituent parts.

But the parts together is what makes the water. See, that is actual science. It is chemistry. We can go in a lab and demonstrate it. Now go in a lab and demonstrate how consciousness could have arisen naturally.

As a matter of fact, just explain to me how, if you have a fully formed brain, you can plug consiousness into the brain. Explain to me how a brain could go from non-thoughts, to thoughts.

Can you do that?

(17-12-2015 05:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  Pro tip: The wetness is an emergent property. It is the water that is wet, all on its own.

Ok...

Wetness is an emergent property when you create water....

and..

Consciousness is an emergent property when you create ___________

Now fill in the blank..

And if you fill in the blank with "brain", I will ask you, if you were a scientist with all of the brain matter in the world at your disposal and you shaped and formed a perfect human brain...how would you get consciousness in there?

Please answer this direct question, sir.

(17-12-2015 05:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, we have evidence that evolution is true. There is no evidence for any gods.

Again, what evidence? Laugh out load

(17-12-2015 05:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, I am relying on the evidence produced by neuroscience.

Again, what evidence? Laugh out load

(17-12-2015 05:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  Actually, it is the only reliable source of knowledge.

Can you scientifically prove that the Nazi's were morally wrong for their tyranny in WWII?

(17-12-2015 05:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  Define life.

the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.

(17-12-2015 05:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  Show the dividing line between non-life and life.

I can't do that any more than you can show the dividing line between consciousness and unconsciousness.

(17-12-2015 05:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  Are viruses alive? Prions?

Perhaps, maybe.
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18-12-2015, 05:04 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(18-12-2015 04:40 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You shouldn't even join into a realm of judging based on "what jesus said" yet, because you should still be questioning the concepts of what is the validity of such cases layers thick. Is it true Jesus said that?

Is it true that Caesar was stabbed?

(18-12-2015 04:40 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  If he even did, does it matter? If he did, was he accurate and right about that? If he did, does that explain trusting him?

If Jesus rose from the dead, then that does matter, and it does explain trusting him.

(18-12-2015 04:40 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Does the source have an accurate testable foundation to accept it as a data of truth?

Yes.

(18-12-2015 04:40 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  He's saying, even by your and christian typical definitions of God. God isn't physical biological life. Because God isn't. So your claim of Life arising out of non-life still applies to your belief. And the Bible directly SAYS non-life from clay-became life.(through the power of God) yes, but it's still as you stated. Non-life becoming life.

Huh
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18-12-2015, 05:18 PM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2015 05:22 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(18-12-2015 05:04 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(18-12-2015 04:40 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You shouldn't even join into a realm of judging based on "what jesus said" yet, because you should still be questioning the concepts of what is the validity of such cases layers thick. Is it true Jesus said that?

Is it true that Caesar was stabbed?

(18-12-2015 04:40 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  If he even did, does it matter? If he did, was he accurate and right about that? If he did, does that explain trusting him?

If Jesus rose from the dead, then that does matter, and it does explain trusting him.

(18-12-2015 04:40 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Does the source have an accurate testable foundation to accept it as a data of truth?

Yes.

(18-12-2015 04:40 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  He's saying, even by your and christian typical definitions of God. God isn't physical biological life. Because God isn't. So your claim of Life arising out of non-life still applies to your belief. And the Bible directly SAYS non-life from clay-became life.(through the power of God) yes, but it's still as you stated. Non-life becoming life.

Huh

Is it true about Cesar? Not for absolute certainty.

Yes, but it's an "IF" you don't go on concluding why it's remarkable if you haven't solved the IF yet. That's not being critical to the examination and instead assuming the outcomes of it being so. There are far more questions than testable answers of most religious claims of any of their natures. They're all on unsubstantiated, take their word for it based on 2nd-3rd hand accounts of alleged details with supposed consequences of significance. Even accepting if Caesar was real & stabbed or not doesn't even matter because what happened historically happened, details & facts being wrong doesn't change anything these days.

Not sure what you're confused about, you've said yourself it's mythical that inanimate matter would turn into life.. you know, like Clay turning into life which is what the bible describes. If you're gonna bicker about what your point is, it reflects you don't really seem to care about what you are actually saying or meaning. you're just throwing out whatever seemingly idea in your favor you have to throw it out there. If you want to be a legitimate apologist who has any grounds to show some point to people, that's not gonna get you anywhere.

You know you can describe easily what non-life and life is & where a virus fits into that picture... by defining your concepts. That's why science defines concepts. So it doesn't have folks flimsy on ideas like, Oh a "KIND" can be ANYTHING we don't know just exactly what, yet you have a range of solid candidate classes it can be listed for, but they don't seem to grasp it or desire avoiding classifying that. Just as you may easily define "life" via processes like science does & I mentioned some. Questioning your hinting of God=life because God according to doctrine and common proclamations of God doesn't fit most any of the criteria for life.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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