Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
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29-09-2015, 02:18 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(28-09-2015 07:53 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  SUPER-supernatural God did it

SUPER-DUPER-supernatural God did it

and so on and so forth ad infinitum
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29-09-2015, 07:21 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(28-09-2015 11:05 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(14-02-2015 07:50 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I was just wondering. Theists tell me that their god created everything in existence from a supernatural realm outside of existence. Leaving aside the self contradictory notion of something existing outside of existence, who created the supernatural realm?

God created all that exists but as far as I know the Bible makes no distinction between natural and supernatural realms. There are some parts of the creation that we can't detect by our senses and it is customary to call this part of creation a supernatural realm but these parts and the parts that we can observe are all part of one single creation. The terms "natural" and "supernatural" are simply labels used to describe different parts of God's creation.

Hi Theophilus,

I'm glad you replied to this old thread that I started some time ago. Unfortunately, I got very busy with work and forgot about it.

But, I have a question. We can't detect many things with our senses such as subatomic particles, Gama rays, and black holes. Does that make them supernatural?

I'm guessing you would not say these things are supernatural but correct me if I'm wrong. If the supernatural is not perceptible, then that would leave a couple of other ways of apprehending it. If it is not perceivable, then do you infer its existence? If you infer its existence, what's your starting point for this inference? I hope you see this and will respond.

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01-10-2015, 06:14 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(26-09-2015 02:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  There is no such thing as supernatural realm. Gods organize things out of eternal un-organized matter.

Where did this eternal matter come from? What created the first god?
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01-10-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(29-09-2015 07:21 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  We can't detect many things with our senses such as subatomic particles, Gama rays, and black holes. Does that make them supernatural?

We can't detect them directly but we have invented ways to detect their existence. The devices we use could be considered an extension of our senses.

Quote:I'm guessing you would not say these things are supernatural but correct me if I'm wrong. If the supernatural is not perceptible, then that would leave a couple of other ways of apprehending it. If it is not perceivable, then do you infer its existence? If you infer its existence, what's your starting point for this inference? I hope you see this and will respond.

I believe the Bible so that is my starting point. However we live in a world that is too complex to have come into existence without an intelligent designer so God has given evidence of his existence even to those who have never read the Bible.

There is a part of creation that we normally have no way of observing but inhabitants of that realm, such as angels, can appear to us and God sometimes gives people the ability to see it directly.

When the servant of the man of God rose early in the morning and went out, behold, an army with horses and chariots was all around the city. And the servant said, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?” He said, “Do not be afraid, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” Then Elisha prayed and said, “O LORD, please open his eyes that he may see.” So the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw, and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
(2 Kings 6:15-17 ESV)


There are people who claim to have psychic powers that enable them to see things others can't. I believe that most of them are frauds but it is possible that some people do have an innate ability to see into this unseen realm.

In any case, I believe that the terms "natural" and "supernatural" are manmade labels to describe these different parts of creation and they are in fact just different parts of God's total creation.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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01-10-2015, 11:13 AM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
The only correct and honest answer a theist can give is:

I don't know.

There is nothing wrong with this answer. Furthermore, the entire premise of theism at its core is based on faith.

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01-10-2015, 01:42 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-10-2015 11:02 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(29-09-2015 07:21 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  We can't detect many things with our senses such as subatomic particles, Gama rays, and black holes. Does that make them supernatural?

We can't detect them directly but we have invented ways to detect their existence. The devices we use could be considered an extension of our senses.

True. Are there any instruments for detecting the supernatural?

(29-09-2015 07:21 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I'm guessing you would not say these things are supernatural but correct me if I'm wrong. If the supernatural is not perceptible, then that would leave a couple of other ways of apprehending it. If it is not perceivable, then do you infer its existence? If you infer its existence, what's your starting point for this inference? I hope you see this and will respond.
(01-10-2015 11:02 AM)theophilus Wrote:  I believe the Bible so that is my starting point. However we live in a world that is too complex to have come into existence without an intelligent designer so God has given evidence of his existence even to those who have never read the Bible.

There is a part of creation that we normally have no way of observing but inhabitants of that realm, such as angels, can appear to us and God sometimes gives people the ability to see it directly.

When the servant of the man of God rose early in the morning and went out, behold, an army with horses and chariots was all around the city. And the servant said, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?” He said, “Do not be afraid, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” Then Elisha prayed and said, “O LORD, please open his eyes that he may see.” So the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw, and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
(2 Kings 6:15-17 ESV)


There are people who claim to have psychic powers that enable them to see things others can't. I believe that most of them are frauds but it is possible that some people do have an innate ability to see into this unseen realm.

In any case, I believe that the terms "natural" and "supernatural" are manmade labels to describe these different parts of creation and they are in fact just different parts of God's total creation.

So to be clear, you neither perceive the supernatural nor do you infer its existence from what you can perceive, but rather you accept its existence on faith in what the Bible says?

If the universe is too complicated to have come into existence without an intelligent designer, wouldn't God also be too complex to have come into existence without an intelligent designer? And wouldn't that intelligent designer be too complex to come into existence without an intelligent designer?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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01-10-2015, 01:53 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(15-02-2015 09:17 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 12:38 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Don't they just assert that god and hence the supernatural realm are eternal, have always been there.

Yes, but if the supernatural realm has always existed, why can't the natural realm have always existed. If you've got to start with something that always existed, makes sense to start with what we know exists rather than another realm outside it that we have no choice but to imagine.

Some say the natural realm always did exist :











Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-10-2015, 02:02 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-10-2015 11:13 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  The only correct and honest answer a theist can give is:

I don't know.

There is nothing wrong with this answer. Furthermore, the entire premise of theism at its core is based on faith.

I agree with you totally on this, but I wonder why that answer is not acceptable when it comes to the existence of the universe. Why can't we just say we don't know? This never seems to be a satisfactory answer when it comes to the universe. And if the universe is the sum total of what exists, then it is fallacious to ask for a cause of the universe to begin with. That's why I think that logically, something has always existed. The universe has always existed in some form.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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01-10-2015, 03:32 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-10-2015 01:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 09:17 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Yes, but if the supernatural realm has always existed, why can't the natural realm have always existed. If you've got to start with something that always existed, makes sense to start with what we know exists rather than another realm outside it that we have no choice but to imagine.

Some say the natural realm always did exist :











That's my belief Bucky. I think that asking what caused everything that exists to exist commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. If something caused it, it would first have to exist which means it's part of the very thing that one is seeking to find a cause for. In order to explain existence you would have to go outside of existence and that would be a contradiction in terms. The only logical conclusion is that there can be no cause for existence as a whole and so existence has to be the ultimate starting point.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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01-10-2015, 08:01 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(01-10-2015 11:02 AM)theophilus Wrote:  We can't detect them directly but we have invented ways to detect their existence. The devices we use could be considered an extension of our senses.

So we can invent instruments to detect heaven and souls and such?

Quote:
Quote:I'm guessing you would not say these things are supernatural but correct me if I'm wrong. If the supernatural is not perceptible, then that would leave a couple of other ways of apprehending it. If it is not perceivable, then do you infer its existence? If you infer its existence, what's your starting point for this inference? I hope you see this and will respond.

I believe the Bible so that is my starting point.

That's presuppositional and inevitably leads to circular arguments.

Quote:However we live in a world that is too complex to have come into existence without an intelligent designer so God has given evidence of his existence even to those who have never read the Bible.

Unsupported claims are dismissed by rational people.

Quote:There is a part of creation that we normally have no way of observing but inhabitants of that realm, such as angels, can appear to us and God sometimes gives people the ability to see it directly.

Unsupported claims are dismissed by rational people.

Quote:There are people who claim to have psychic powers that enable them to see things others can't. I believe that most of them are frauds but it is possible that some people do have an innate ability to see into this unseen realm.

Unsupported claims are dismissed by rational people.

Quote:In any case, I believe that the terms "natural" and "supernatural" are manmade labels to describe these different parts of creation and they are in fact just different parts of God's total creation.

Unsupported claims are dismissed by rational people.

None of your assertions are supported by evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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