Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
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26-01-2016, 10:19 PM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2016 10:40 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(26-01-2016 09:58 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  That is the absurd concept. The only way I can imagine a "timeless" cause initiating time would be if I posit God existing throughout eternity in a perfecting stationary existence. Never once moving.

If he existed throughout eternity, having never moved, perfectly still...then there is no time element to his existence, is there?

Now, suppose the man moves his leg. From the moment his leg moves, that represents the first moment in time. That is the first "change", representing the first moment in time. The man has just went from an atemporal state, to a temporal state. The man is forever in time. This change is irreversible. It cannot be undone.

Bullshit. A god that THINKS, is already moving. A god that DECIDES to create before it does, is intentional, and THAT already requires time. Your god "sat there" for ALL eternity, and never had one thought ? LMAO. The whole pile of nonsense is full of special pleading. One has to THINK about doing something, AND your god already knew (before) what it was going to do, by definition. Creation IS an "act". An ACT puts an end to the infinity of it's past and future. Your god, therefore is not infinite. It's all a pile of contradictory garbage. Time doesn't pop out of nowhere. Your god has to CREATE it. How can you act to create time, if time is not already in place ? That is nonsensical and contradictory. How did the reality of timelessness come about in which your god FOUND itself ? Who made reality ? That's a question you STILL have not answered.
Now about checkers .. you got a set ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-01-2016, 10:31 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(18-12-2015 04:28 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  If the man has been sitting perfectly still for eternity (without time), then there was no moments which lead to his sitting. And if there is no moment before his sitting, there is no moments AFTER his sitting...nor DURING his sitting. Time simply doesn't exist.

Now, suppose the man moves his leg.
Without time, how can the man go from sitting perfectly still to moving his leg?
He can't think, he can't change without the passage of time.
He would have no consciousness, no ability to make observations, no ability to react.

(18-12-2015 04:28 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  From the moment his leg moves, that represents the first moment in time.
But that moment never comes. The man is incapable of change. He must stay perfectly still.

(18-12-2015 04:28 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  The man has just went from an atemporal state, to a temporal state.
This is impossible for him to do.


(18-12-2015 04:28 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  It is the same thing with God,
Yes, the same thing with a theoretical god. Unable to think, unable to change, the god cannot choose to move, the god cannot initiate the beginning of the universe and the beginning of time. Not even an all powerful entity could do that.



(18-12-2015 04:28 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Sure, it is hard for us to understand how God could have existed in such a state for eternity, however, it can be imagined. It can be perceived.
It can only be imagined if you forgo rules of logic, rules governing physical existence. I can let my brain loose and imagine a square circle. It can be imagined and it can be perceived. It is however impossible for it to exist.
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27-01-2016, 03:33 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(26-01-2016 06:01 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Because he was right. You did commit the fallacy of non sequitur. It was a textbook example.

What I said was "The point is simple: There lies a being that can manifest itself into a unicorn".

If you just take the statement at face value, of course, you can accuse me of committing such a fallacy. However, that would be ignoring the 800+ posts of me giving arguments for the existence of God and also failing to acknowledge that it is on the basis of those arguments that I believe "there lies a being that can manifest itself into a unicorn".

So I made the statement based on shit I've advocated for since the very moment I stepped foot in this forum.

So again, don't take Bucky's side on anything. You cannot be on his team, and be on a winning team. Oxymoron type of stuff.

Got it?
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27-01-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(26-01-2016 10:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Without time, how can the man go from sitting perfectly still to moving his leg?

The mere beginning of the man's movement of his leg is simultaneous with the first induction of time (and change). Both events occurred simultaneously. One did not precede the other.

(26-01-2016 10:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  He can't think, he can't change without the passage of time.

When he changed, he changed in time. Remember; it was simultaneous. The first moment in time occured simultaneously with the first change in time, and the first movement in time. All equally occurred at the same "first" initial moment.

(26-01-2016 10:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  He would have no consciousness, no ability to make observations, no ability to react.

I have to admit the consciousness aspect of it is difficult. The only thing I can think of is maybe God's thoughts were stationary in the sense that his thoughts were "fixed" in the sense that his thoughts were "still".

*shrugs*.

(26-01-2016 10:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  But that moment never comes. The man is incapable of change. He must stay perfectly still.

Why must he stay perfectly still? We can imagine a man that has been sitting perfectly still from past eternity, can't we? Well, if we can imagine it...the mere concept alone must be possibly true...so if we can imagine a scenario at which this could occur, why do you maintain that the man must stay perfectly still?

(26-01-2016 10:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  This is impossible for him to do.

Then why can I imagine that he did??

(26-01-2016 10:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Yes, the same thing with a theoretical god. Unable to think, unable to change, the god cannot choose to move, the god cannot initiate the beginning of the universe and the beginning of time. Not even an all powerful entity could do that.

The scenario I gave allowed God to do it. If you can't comprehend that, then we aren't thinking about the same thing.

(26-01-2016 10:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It can only be imagined if you forgo rules of logic, rules governing physical existence. I can let my brain loose and imagine a square circle. It can be imagined and it can be perceived. It is however impossible for it to exist.

Nonsense. Show me a squared circle, then. Go ahead. If you can perceive it, you can draw it, and you and show it. So enlighten me on what a squared circle would look like.

I will wait.
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27-01-2016, 03:58 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(27-01-2016 03:45 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(26-01-2016 10:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ... . I can let my brain loose and imagine a square circle. It can be imagined and it can be perceived. It is however impossible for it to exist.

Nonsense. Show me a squared circle, then. Go ahead. If you can perceive it, you can draw it, and you and show it. So enlighten me on what a squared circle would look like.

I will wait.

Show me God. I will wait.
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27-01-2016, 04:06 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
A squared circle:

[Image: squared_circle.JPG]

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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27-01-2016, 04:50 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(27-01-2016 04:06 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  A squared circle:

[Image: squared_circle.JPG]

Much like YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER, YOU CANNOT SQUARE A CIRCLE!

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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27-01-2016, 05:12 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(27-01-2016 03:45 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  The mere beginning of the man's movement of his leg is simultaneous with the first induction of time (and change). Both events occurred simultaneously. One did not precede the other.

I have to admit the consciousness aspect of it is difficult. The only thing I can think of is maybe God's thoughts were stationary in the sense that his thoughts were "fixed" in the sense that his thoughts were "still".

*shrugs*.

That's IT ? That's all you got, gramps ?
Thanks for showing us that, in the end, you have no answers to the tough questions.

(27-01-2016 03:45 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Then why can I imagine that he did??

Cuz you're nuts. Cuz we can imagine a square circle. You refute yourself in the same post. Facepalm

(27-01-2016 03:45 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  The scenario I gave allowed God to do it. If you can't comprehend that, then we aren't thinking about the same thing.

You made up a story. It means nothing.

(27-01-2016 03:45 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Nonsense. Show me a squared circle, then. Go ahead. If you can perceive it, you can draw it, and you and show it. So enlighten me on what a squared circle would look like.

He doesn't have to. If YOU get to say YOU image something, and it means something, so does everyone else.

Stick to checkers, gramps.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-01-2016, 05:26 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(27-01-2016 04:50 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(27-01-2016 04:06 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  A squared circle:

[Image: squared_circle.JPG]

Much like YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER, YOU CANNOT SQUARE A CIRCLE!




Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-01-2016, 05:44 PM
RE: Who Created The Supernatual Realm.
(27-01-2016 03:45 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(26-01-2016 10:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Without time, how can the man go from sitting perfectly still to moving his leg?

The mere beginning of the man's movement of his leg is simultaneous with the first induction of time (and change). Both events occurred simultaneously. One did not precede the other.
No, that is a cop out. Before the man's leg moved he must have formulated a single thought, he must have mentally decided to go from being stationary to having his leg move. In order to make this decision he needs to have awareness of his current state, he needs a desire for a future state which differs from his current state, he must have at his disposal a means to change and he must then initiate this means to change.
Thus he must have a consciousness.
But I hope you have noticed that there is a necessary sequence here.
If we assume that this man is omniscient then we can assume he already knows the following
- He must be aware of his current state
- He must know of all the mechanisms of change at his disposal
- He must already understand enough about the physical laws in order to know what parameters are needed to be applied to the mechanism to affect the desired change. (whatever that desire might be)
Now we get to the sequential stuff.
1. He must have a desire for a stationary state. (Assuming that there are no constraints on this person, for him to be in a current state of being stationary, he must have a desire for being stationary and must have "started" off being in this stationary state)
2. He must change his desire from a desire for a stationary state to a desire to a state in motion.
3. He choose a mechanism to alter current stationary state to desired future motion state.
4. He must plan(set) the parameters to be applied to the chosen mechanism to alter current state to future state. e.g. when to initiate this change?, how quickly he wants his leg to accelerate, at what point does he want his leg to stop moving, how quickly he should decelerate his leg to stop it. He must plan out the stopping of his leg because if he doesn't then perhaps he accelerates his leg too fast on initiation and cannot then stop it in time.
5. He must initiate that mechanism.
In this scenario you are claiming that time comes into existence simultaneously with step 5, which allows his leg to move.

But the problem arises because each of the prior steps need to be in this sequential order.
For example we cannot switch the above so that step 2 comes first and step 1 goes second.
First
2. He must change his desire from a desire for a stationary state to a desire to a state in motion.
Then
1. He must have a desire for a stationary state. (Assuming that there are no constraints on this person, for him to be in a current state of being stationary, he must have a desire for being stationary and must have "started" off being in this stationary state)
He cannot change his desire to a desire for a state in motion and as a result have a desire for a stationary state. That does not make logical or sequential sense.

We could not switch step 2 and step 3.
First
3. He choose a mechanism to alter current stationary state to desired future motion state.
Then
2. He must change his desire from a desire for a stationary state to a desire to a state in motion.
He cannot choose a mechanism to alter his current state to the desired state before he has chosen his desired state. That does not make logical or sequential sense.

Do you see what I am getting at? Without time we have no before and after, we have no sequence, we have no change.

I bet you are probably thinking "Ah, but if he does all of these things simultaneously then there is no problem".
However, when we do things simultaneously there can't be any coordination, dependencies or flow of information from one thing to another. If there are dependencies or flow or coordination then there must be sequence.
For example, I can pat myself on the head and rub my tummy simultaneously. If I am patting myself on the head this has no correlation on whether I am also rubbing my tummy or not.
But when we delve into the detail of it and look at the constraints we can see that there is a dependency issue. I have two hands (right and left) for me to pat my head and rub my tummy I need to decide which hand goes to my head and thus know which had must go to my tummy. If I were to do the pat and rub simultaneously I would be 50% likely to either end up with both my hands on my head or both my hands on my tummy. So I have a minimum of two sequential steps:
1. choose which hand is to go to head and know that the other hand must go to tummy
2. Perform the act.
Because there are sequential steps, I require the passage of time prior to my moving of hands.

(27-01-2016 03:45 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(26-01-2016 10:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  He would have no consciousness, no ability to make observations, no ability to react.

I have to admit the consciousness aspect of it is difficult. The only thing I can think of is maybe God's thoughts were stationary in the sense that his thoughts were "fixed" in the sense that his thoughts were "still".

*shrugs*.
You need to think this issue through more. This is a significant issue with your position, it can't simply be shrugged off.
(27-01-2016 03:45 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(26-01-2016 10:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  But that moment never comes. The man is incapable of change. He must stay perfectly still.

Why must he stay perfectly still? We can imagine a man that has been sitting perfectly still from past eternity, can't we? Well, if we can imagine it...the mere concept alone must be possibly true...so if we can imagine a scenario at which this could occur, why do you maintain that the man must stay perfectly still?
You haven't thought about the process that is going on inside his brain, the necessary change where his desire goes from a desire to be stationary to a desire to be in motion.
(27-01-2016 03:45 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(26-01-2016 10:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  This is impossible for him to do.

Then why can I imagine that he did??
Because your imagination isn't constrained by reality.
I can imagine myself picking up a three tonne elephant with my bare hands and lifting it above my head with ease. However in reality I can't do that.
(27-01-2016 03:45 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(26-01-2016 10:31 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It can only be imagined if you forgo rules of logic, rules governing physical existence. I can let my brain loose and imagine a square circle. It can be imagined and it can be perceived. It is however impossible for it to exist.

Nonsense. Show me a squared circle, then. Go ahead. If you can perceive it, you can draw it, and you and show it. So enlighten me on what a squared circle would look like.

I will wait.
I can perceive it because my imagination isn't constrained by 2 dimensional imagery. Hence my imagination cannot be conveyed to you by representing in on the 2 dimensional plane of a drawing on a piece of paper.
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